March 08, 2021


WandaVision 9 - It's all over, but what does it mean?

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Kenric Regan John Horsley
WandaVision 9 - It's all over, but what does it mean?
Spoiler Country
WandaVision 9 - It's all over, but what does it mean?

Mar 08 2021 | 00:58:18


Show Notes

It’s finally here! The conclusion to WandaVision! This wrapped up some storylines but also left us with a lot of questions! Ralph Bohner? A slow burn dick joke from Marvel? Well played, or maybe not?

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WandaVision 9 Episode Review



[00:00:00] Casey: So do you guys watch one division? I didn’t. I said, fuck it. I just don’t want the story to end, so I’m not going to watch the last

Sumner: CBS.

Okay. So here’s, here’s some, I really loved, I touched upon it before earlier, but I really loved this element of it. I really loved the fact that the showdown between. The two visions you know, kind of like soul stone division and white vision w was, was, was based upon reason rather than force. So they start fighting, but within a second, they just start talking to each other and that’s how they’re resolved and, and, and.

You know, one, the one divisions, one division is gift to white vision is unlocking all his memories and given him this whole memory and sense of self back, I thought that was beautiful. And I really loved the way that for a minute, here’s kind of like, you know, kind of [00:01:00] his is. Generation circuit becomes, you know, sole stone colored as he gets everything back.

And then his eyes turn from being an automaton, but to the eyes of the character. And he’s like, Oh, wow. Okay. Now I am, I am vision

Casey: kind of gave him his

Kenric: humanity. Yeah.

Sumner: Well, I’m really hoping that what he did. He just flew over to sort of headquarters waited for, you know, for the, for the sword dude arrested to turn up in chains and just tore him apart,

Kenric: you know, and all his memories back then, if he gets all his memories back then they, they had concluded by the whole story of the ship and replacing the planks and the rotted out.

And eventually the, all the plankton men replaced and blah, blah, blah. And they had this home. Kind of, I don’t know it was over done conversation, but it was like, it was a needed conversation to try to explain the mindset of both of them.

Casey: Well, it, it made sense [00:02:00] and all, like I liked that they kind of brought that into the, into the story to kind of explain like, yeah,

Kenric: yeah.

They, they needed something to explain what was going on, but he gets all his memories back. Why isn’t white vision at the house when they go through, because to me. If I got all my, if I get all my memories back and I am vision, he’s not going to have the memories of the children. So he’s not going to have that emotional tie there, but his emotional title Wanda’s going to be there.

And why isn’t, Medivision having an emotional tie to the children, because if my kid was in that room and it was going to go into oblivion, I am not going to be downstairs with. With whoever is downstairs, but be it the mom or not, I’m going to be with those kids. And it didn’t make sense to me that he spends his last moments hanging out with Wanda.

He should be with the kids and why isn’t white vision, who has all the memories who is in love with Wanda, not there with [00:03:00] her during that time, because she’s losing her whole family. And I didn’t understand why that didn’t happen. I was, I was, I was floored. I was like, wait a minute. There’s a huge emotional component here.

That’s not,

Sumner: I’ve got theories on both of those things, but I think you do as well. Casey, you do your theories. So,

Casey: he’s a sensibly, you know, a child’s mind in the body of a man white vision. And he, he gets all that knowledge. What did you do when you had the Childs? Mind and the body of a man.

And you first discovered the internet. That’s exactly what he’s doing. I didn’t

Kenric: take it that way though. I took it that he got all his memories back.

Sumner: He’s flown away to masturbate solidly for a month, as soon as the vision, just on top of a mountain in like Switzerland, just constantly with all this white vision judges, like spraying over the mountains, like snow.

And, you know, it’s like, we’ve got an unusually, like it’s, even though it’s, even though it’s spring and the snow everywhere in [00:04:00] Switzerland. To the, the NCU

Kenric: say it that way. I took

John: it, that he, his

Kenric: vision, that all his memories are back and he has become the vision

Sumner: of old. So, so my theory, even though I would love him to be for one, to read the description, the decision. Yeah. The decisions like

dispensing loads of like sell stone Chisholm everywhere. You see, my, my view is actually what has happened is that it? I think, I think it’s very close to what you were saying, Casey. I think he’s got all the visions memories. Back, but it’s the nature versus nurture debate, right? It’s one thing getting all the memories back.

He’s got them, but. Division has grown emotionally, which is about living through that life. Not just being aware of it has grown emotionally over four years. So he’s come to have those emotions and comes to the point where he can cry because he’s lived through it. It’s not just that he technically remembers it.

And I [00:05:00] think the issue with white vision or the way I’m choosing to look at it right now is that with white vision, he’s got all the memories back, but what you can’t give him. Is the emotional resonance of those memories. He’s still an automaton, but he knows everything, but he can’t feel it because he’s got to live it to feel it that’s

Kenric: the thing though, is that that is division.

He’s only white because of the manipulation of the government that is, and they blocked those memories from being a part of those. He did live. They just, all the other Medivision did is under the firewall within his mind that wasn’t allowing him to access. When we say memory, it’s not like they’re their memories of another vision that were downloaded into his head.

They were already there. He. Did experience all that. They just blocked mentally blocked everything from him having access to it.

Sumner: So I, I think you’ve, I Kenrick, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head completely. There [00:06:00] he’s been clinically rebuilt by the government, right. Rebuilt by sword in the laboratory scenario.

But of course he wasn’t created that way. He, it, the reality is he was created as a mix between the work that staff and banner did. Yeah. And that of the job is animous and persona and of the soul stone, which they had in the under Thor’s hammer. So he’s like at least 50%, all this mystical energy. And he kind of built himself this version of the vision.

It’s been built in a fucking laboratory, right. You know, is, is much more a work of like, you know, actually human scientific building and circuits. And I, my that’s why I think even though he’s got all these memories, the way they’re being processed is there’s much, much less element tality within this version of the vision.

This version of the visit is much more like a fucking Android, which is not to say can’t learn how to be what he was, but he’s not that right now, if [00:07:00] that makes sense. I agree that that’s how I think about it. And to talk about your, your, your thing about. How could you have these boys? This is wonder vision.

How could you have these boys choose to spend your last moments in the wife? I think, I think the reason for that is if you look back over the show, cause I was thinking of it, of exactly that point myself. The boys are mainly a construct of wonder. Yeah. And there are constructed. She has created them.

Yeah. And he is the father, for sure. Yeah. But for him, the primary emotion, you know, these through line on emotion is his love for her. So normally if you have a biological child, You know what happens with a lot of people, not everybody, but with a lot of people is that becomes the primary love of your life.

Right. And then your partner becomes the almost, but not quite equal version of that, which is why so many people will sacrifice themselves for the, for the betterment of their own children. [00:08:00] Right. Throughout history. Yeah. But, but actually. It’s wonder who feels that connection because she created them for vision.

They were created in front of him. Right. Which is a slightly different thing. He didn’t create them, but he exists because she created him on her love for him, created him. So in that moment where he knows he’s got it and he’s moved by the fact that the boys are going, don’t get me wrong. He doesn’t, it’s not like he doesn’t give a fuck, but in that moment what’s created him.

Is is wonder and how to love for him. And so his final moment kind of has to be with her emotionally. That’s how I looked at that. That’s how it kind of makes sense. It would be different if he was their biological father or he created those children. It would be a different deal. But I think he seeing them through a prism of her.

And so his primary connection is with her. And I think that’s why the final moment is with each other rather than class, than a family environment. If that makes sense, totally

Kenric: invested into the show. I didn’t want it [00:09:00] that way, you know, but it’s hard to tell, so I don’t get that choice. Yeah. Like I, I just know how I would react.

Like I have a seven year old and she’s adopted. Yeah. Okay. I would still feel the need to be there. You know what I mean? Of course, of course. No, no, no. I have to be there. That’s no, there’s no, if ands or buts about it. So it was just, it was a weird experience watching it.

Sumner: No, mate, I really do get that, that, you know, we’re all like, we’ve all, we’re all family, men, we’ve all got our kids and more Johnny, what do you think?

John: I think you nailed it there with it, with that kind of why he was down with it ultimately. Like, it’s not vision, right? It’s a construct of one is of Wanda and it kind of would be that he’s going to be with her because he was created out of her. It’s like the kids were, I don’t understand ultimately why she wasn’t in the room with the kids, because she would have that connection with them.

I don’t [00:10:00] know why she would, you would put them to bed to let them disappear by themselves. I would, I would expect, you know, if it would be in the room with them, you would just write it out altogether and. I think that the last scene of when vision disappears in front of her, he says, you know, I love your body, whatever he says, that would have been more powerful.

Have they also been there? Right. They all were just in that huddle together. Casey. Yeah.

Kenric: That’s another yeah. Aspect. Think about it that way too. It was, it was just a weird, it was just a, it was a weird scene. And I think Andrew explained it really well of what, like he must’ve been in the writers room when they were deciding how to do this, because I think he kind of nailed

Sumner: it.

Cool. So in spirit, I got kicked out of the writer’s room after my show, but it makes complete sense. Just going to be walking off constant. No, no, no. He’s Tyler’s cause he’s an Android. She’s going to be placing himself,

Casey: Europeans. What I was going to say [00:11:00] your time really been a thing for them. I mean, not day by day by day, they’ve gone through decades of changing growth in the span of a few days.

So the attachment that you have, you love over time, you gain trust over time, you gain All this stuff over time. And of course, you’re going to love your kid, but the, the idea of them knowing their children right away when they were just like, they just showed up out of the ether. That was one thing that kind of I’ve been thinking about.

And So, yeah, of course they’re going to feel that loss, but it was just a sensibly over the span of a few days. So they didn’t really get to know them.

I still don’t [00:12:00] know if I like my kids. I’m joking. I’m joking. I love them. They’re they’re the light of my life, but she’ll, she’ll agree.

Kenric: The set up times with they, they set up knowing

John: your wife for her to have

Kenric: she She showed great emotion, mama bear. You know what I mean? A lot of the, like they, sorry, guys. They kept showing like, Hey, we got a w we want to show this emotional connection between son and mom. And they did it over and over again. And they showed and she had. Expressions of love speaking, speaking of

Casey: family moments that have to drive my life.

So I’m going to go,

Kenric: Johnny kind of nailed it. Like it should have been a family of them just appear more than let’s shut the door. I don’t want to, I don’t want to see these two snot heads when they disappear. Cause I don’t want to hear it. I don’t want to hear them [00:13:00] complaining about being obliterated. So I’m going to go downstairs.


Sumner: Well, right. Okay. Priorities.

Kenric: okay. Now she’s gone.

John: Instead of here. Let’s talk shit about him. No I think, I think that it’s, I dunno, I love the kids. I, I will put it in jumping to the end to end of the episode. They’ll do the final, final scene in the, in the cabin. Where, you know, Juan is essence specific going through the dark hold.

Did you guys hear the kids?

Sumner: Yes, absolutely. Right. Then

John: tells me that the kids aren’t actually gone and she’s trying to find them,

Kenric: or it’s somebody using the voices of the kids to manipulate her?

John: I think the, I think if it’s manipulating the kid or I think if the kids don’t really exist somewhere, it’s going to be a huge misstep for Marvel because.

Having those two characters really lets them set up the next round Avengers, right. Having wicked and speed, lets them build up the new Avengers, the Avengers. I mean, and they’re just fun characters. I think that I kind of delete [00:14:00] leads into our, our, our top, our, our conversation of, of this show and where it’s going with multiple orthodontists Moni verse versus that she’s going to be trying to find those kids.

That’s going to be the catalyst of what Dr. Street has to come into. But it’s, it’s gonna be interesting because, you know, is she going to be the bad guy of that movie because of the end of this movie? Because the very Britain of this movie? Yeah, there is, Oh, Jack, Jack’s come and say hi, say hi, Jack, Jack.

But yeah, but he I think he’s going to be, she’s

Kenric: trying to find the kids. All right, Jack.

John: I lost my train of thought now, but anyway, I think that I, I think, I think the kids are going to come back. I don’t think it’s somebody trying to fuck with her, with the kids. I think it’s actually, she’s looking through the dark hole. Yeah. To find somewhere in the multi-verse, but those kids exist

Kenric: so she can take them.


Sumner: So I think I said this already, and I’m not going to spend a lot of time repeating myself, but I so I’ve, I’ve loved the show from start to finished. There’ve been bits of it that haven’t resonated with me too much and, [00:15:00] and like selves I’m devoted father that my kids are both adults now under far and away, you know, the most important things in my life that said.

I couldn’t stand those kids in, in one division. And I just wanted them to get fucking horribly killed or something, you know, sort of half the way through. And every time they’re on scanners, love. Fuck not these kids again. Jesus Christ. And I just really struggled with it. I just couldn’t connect them at all.

They had no emotional resonance for me. And I’m because the thing is cut child actors. It’s a tough gig being a child actor, because there’ve been a handful who’ve been instinctively very good over the years, but you see Jodie foster when she’s young, when she’s in a TV version of paper, moon, when she’s in texting, texting driver, she’s fully formed as an amazing performer, right?

If you see in the original paper, moon movie, If you haven’t seen it, one of the greatest performances you’re ever going to say by like a pre-teen person is is a what’s her [00:16:00] name? Hang on Tatum O’Neal and paper, moon. She is incredible. Right. She’s amazing. And there’s a handful of other people over the years as well.

Right. But generally speaking. Child actors, even though they might have it within, this would be great. One day are generally not fully formed in terms of the performative ability. And so that was my issue with these two, two guys, like, you know, that there was a level of, of, of, there was a coach element about the performances, like in this final episode where they, where they used their powers to try and find the soldiers and like, and he steals the baseball cap from one of the soldiers and puts it on his head and takes his sunglasses.

And is it wicked in speed? That’s what the call, they turn up in front of each other and they high five each other. The reality is that looked very forced and coached. It didn’t look like a natural acting moment. And then that moment tells like, fuck these kids, they’re taking me out the show again. Do you know what I mean?

This is like watching some blame ass fucking early seventies, like Croft brothers show with that [00:17:00] level of acting. And so I just couldn’t buy into it. Right. So that, so that was my issue. So I’d never really felt it when they’re on screen. And so when I heard their voice at the end, I was like, Oh no, we’re not going to see these guys go.

I thought I’d gone for good. You know? So that was my, that was my thing.

John: We’ll see them as those kids again, I think if they, when they find them, they’re going to be older, right. They’re going to be the teenager.

Sumner: Which, I mean, I think I’ve got to get a balance though, right. Because you know, my mate, Lindsay Olsen is not that old, you know, and, and you know, you can’t have a with strapping, like 20 year old sons, it’s gonna look weird, but

John: you can, if they’re pulled out of the multi-verse and they’ve been

Kenric: aged up in like three days anyways, so yeah,

John: we’re going to have Ms.

Marvel, but they’re interesting. A lot of younger characters that build up the new Avengers, right. And, you know, they’re, they’ve already stated that they’re, they’re pushing towards that nether next Avengers team, quote unquote, that’s the similar crew. And it would make sense for them to pull off these characters from the multi-verse somewhere where they are [00:18:00] already, you know, in their teens.

And that also then give them another dynamic against Wanda and against vision, because they’re not necessarily their kids, but they are their kids and they’re also older and they would expect them to be, but the

Kenric: multi-verse allows for the doctor who moment of a new doctor.

Sumner: Yeah, of course, of course. Yeah.


Kenric: Right. I mean, that was like the greatest thing that Dr. Hu the team ever did was have a way for them to regenerate.

Sumner: Yeah. And I’m, by the way, you know, the way it worked with doctors originally So it’s quite obvious that the original intention, when he regenerated for the first time, what they were thinking of with their minds is he was regenerating to a young version of himself.

And it was only when he went from doctor to doctor three, then became, Oh, actually he’s a completely different version every time. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, that’s how creativity evolves. Right? We haven’t touched upon one of my absolute favorite moments in the show [00:19:00] and which is very redolent of watching like a Blumhouse film or something.

I love the moment in the show when. One that turns the tables on Agatha. Right. And do you realize, Oh, wait a minute. Agatha, has you in that moment where you think Atticus has got it right? It’s like in the Cincinnati kid, you know, I’ve got the man I’ve got him and then there’s that, there’s that moment where she creeps up behind her and it just feeds some in-kind tourists.

But it’s shot in that stagger cut way that, you know, a lot of contemporary horror films are. Right. So she just kind of appears and whispers in her ear and it was genuine. It’s really creepy. But in that moment, she’s, she’s, this is not what she’s not beaten. She’s she’s got her beat and then they did it again.

Cause they, then they take you to the Salem, which thing to think, Oh my God, she know that she’s got to this time, but she didn’t, she just has a beaten cold. Yeah. And in, in those. Five 10 minutes of the show. She’s realized the enormity of [00:20:00] the power she’s dealing with and she’s mastered it in those five to 10 minutes.

And then she has that force to be reckoned with. And then she’s unbeatable. When do you think she was

Kenric: building those rooms?

John: When she was throwing the fireballs, the walls,

Sumner: correct. I think that’s exactly what she was doing meant to

Kenric: misdirect you thinking that she’s firing at us. Right.

Sumner: And that’s what I, and that’s what I guess the things is that they’re being fired at her and she’s like winning.

But she’s casting those spells and just, you know, she’s, she’s, she’s already beaten. She doesn’t know it yet. And that moment of revelation that’s what I also thought was, was great about harm’s performances. Like, I mean, cause I’ve generally preferred her preferred her performance in the more comedic episodes which really plays into what she does really well.

Kathryn Hahn. Yeah. But there was that twist a moment where she went from being. You know, the TV movie villain of the week character arc of darkness, war with a big, which to be like, Oh fuck, I I’ve totally been outclassed here. [00:21:00] This person’s way more dangerous than I thought she was. I thought she was dangerous, but didn’t know what she was doing, but she’s learned what to do in like record time, just within the course of a conversation.

You know, and then and then that way she’s almost pleading not to have a kind of brainwashed and go back to being the asinine next door neighbor. And when, when she says to wonder, you know, you’re not this you’re cruel and there’s the look on one this face, which is. That’s right. I’m fucking cruel.

You know, she totally owned it as well. She was not like, no, no, no. You know, you’re, you’re, you’re judging me to Asti she has this gleeful sadistic look on her face, you know, to me,

Kenric: I liked that aspect when they have characters that because if, if the role was reversed and an Agnes or Agathon, I always get confused with Agnes and Agatha zit person.

Yeah. Same person. If they were reversed and she had wanded down on her knees. It could make the decision to let her go or to kill her or to [00:22:00] imprison her mind. She would just kill her. And it wouldn’t matter the type of begging that Wanda did, but then you, and then people will, well, you should show remorse cause they’re, you know, they, they, you can clearly tell it.

It’s like, no, man, this is it. It it’s, it’s like the old adage of. That whole revenge section of if I kill this guy and he has a son, then I got to go and kill his son because the sound’s going to come back and kill me, you know? And, and you can take that on whatever level that you want. You can take it as a, as a literal translation to that, or you need to make sure that you’re in a position of these repercussions are going to get to this point and no for no point further.

Excuse me. And I kind of liked that. Wanda was like, I’m not, you’re not just going, I’m going to imprison you. You know what I mean? She could have killed her, but she did have a little bit of the, of, of not remorse, but [00:23:00] of sympathy because she didn’t just take it all away. Right. She said, no, we’re going to imprison you because there’s, there’s, there’s a little, there’s a little two hands there going on.

Right. Once she’s given her a little bit of sympathy by just in president you’re, I mean, I mean, look at our prison, right? Yeah. Yeah, it could be suburb hell, but it’s not like she’s in literal prison and not in can’t do anything, you know, but the other time is if she killed her, she knows the experience and the knowledge Agatha has.

And she’s like, now I know I can go back and I can get these things from you because I’ve already, I’m already able to whip you like a dog. So I’m not worried about that. Yeah. I think that’s what.

Sumner: I think it’s exactly right mate. Yeah, exactly. Right. Also, I think it’s fascinating. The whole dynamic of her with the town full of people, because on the one hand monikers going Don, you’ll never know what you did for them, which is give up your idyllic family life so they could be go back to normal again.

Well, that’s true. But also [00:24:00] you created that idyllic life and enslave these people in the first place. Yeah. She hasn’t really done anything particularly good. I can totally understand how that whole town full of people fucking hates her guts because they’ve been enslaved for a month subjected to subjected to her nightmares and everything.

That’s worried. Her has been worrying them. They haven’t been able to escape it. They’ve been enslaved, so they’re never going to like her. Okay. Well done. And by the way, I think this is again, the Marvel universe does quite well. It has these not necessarily black and white iterations of what some of these characters do.

And you flipped back to a film. That’s has a lot of influence over this series, age of Ultron. That’s basically stark in all his like super genius arrogance going. I’m going to save the world by putting in a wall of armor around it. But what he does is create this fucking despotic robot, that light. Kills hundreds of thousands of people.

That’s all on him. It’s never [00:25:00] really dealt with. And like, you know, wander to date has done the small version of that, which is like, I enslaved this entire town for a month just to make myself feel better. And I think parts of where they may be going with a character maybe. Is that she’s ultimately going to become a more damaged and malevolent force within the MCU than she is right now, almost as if what she’s done in one division is a trial run for the things that she’s prepared to do in the future.

They’re setting it up. And so if she thinks those fake, like, you know, those fake kids of hers are going to come back and be imperiled, the kids that she’s created, that she’s already been prepared to just take out the lives of like 200 people to fuel her own fantasy. It’s like, what will she do next? If she thinks they’re genuinely at some point kind of risk, you know, that’s when you open up the whole house fan door, you know, that whole, like, you know, the whole.

The actions of a desk bot rather than somebody who’s empathy, empathic about other people.

Kenric: That’s true. So

[00:26:00] Sumner: great power corrupts. Absolutely.

Kenric: Right. Yeah. Andrew described his favorite moment of the two of this series, season series finale. I want to say season and Tony, what was your favorite moment of

John: this last episode?

And there was, there was so many, and we haven’t even touched on some of the best moment of the show. But. My overall favorite moment would probably be the realization between in the air between Agathon Wanda, that Agatha is lost. Like when she first, the first time she goes, like, when she puts her hands out to do a spell and nothing happens.

And then at that moment, everything you want has been in doing clicks and make sense. And that episode that was visually. Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah, I think that’s probably my favorite moment. I did like, I also, I really, really, really enjoyed how the two visions into their fight. I love the fact that it was a reasoning battle, not a physical battle.

It made sense. And it made, it made the characters better. Right. Because you would think these two people would that way.

Kenric: Yeah. Yeah. That’s really cool for me. It was,

[00:27:00] Sumner: yeah. I was going to say, how about yourself? Can

Kenric: Rick? Yeah, for me, it was, it was the end scene after the credits where she’s in a cabin. You know, way far away out in the remote cabin and you see you’re sitting down drinking, it must have been a a

Sumner: tea actually making some tea for herself.

Kenric: Yeah. And then inside is. It’s like she’s, she’s has two versions of herself.

Sumner: One more time, almost like an astral projection of yourself. Right. And you know, our brains just doing this stuff, when

Kenric: they show her studying that dark hole, it just looked so visually pleasing, you know, and it just, it looked amazing.

I really liked it. I

Sumner: really enjoyed it. I, I think that’s right under Karen, let me ask you w we’ve talked about those highlights from the finale. If you look over the whole show I’ll give you mine, and then you tell me what you think. What do you vote as, as kind of your highlight moment? Actually, for me, I think [00:28:00] probably the big sort of mic drop moment was I think it was in, in.

Is she in in episode four where you start to see the world outside of the West V fancy world. And I think that was a huge step change. And then I think like the same episode in which both Jimmy woo and Darcy turned up, I think the characters were beautifully portrayed in this. And we’re both improved by actually there.

Yeah. If,

Kenric: if, if. Disney does not step on that bandwagon and get a show for Randall park and for a cat

Sumner: Dennings Dennings they’re amazing. Kat Dennings and the may Randall park

Kenric: three with photon. Yeah. And have a three person showed up if they don’t do that. I don’t know what to do. I think the mic drop moment for me really.

Was the moment that the guy that his visions corporate [00:29:00] boss comes for dinner and he starts choking. And the mom from that seventies show, I can’t remember her name. So that’s how I’ll say it because they will know exactly what I’m talking about, starts telling him to stop it while she’s laughing. And I think that for me was the moment that everything got, Oh, okay.

This is a different. This is different, you know, even though we had the whole TV show thing and we knew it was going to be kind of weird, that moment was so, so Twilight zone ish, that I was like, Oh, I’m really going to enjoy this. And I think that would,

Sumner: it’s that moment of unsettling darkness, like in, you know, whatever it’s called the famous Billy mummy episode with the kid who can control the world around him.

Right. Yeah. You know, it, it was like that. It was like, wait a minute. These people are aware that some dark shit is going on, you know, and you get that glimpse of, Oh, they know that something’s up, you know, they’re just, you’re not seeing the natural. Yeah. Yeah. And I love it too, because

Kenric: that’s when the whole concept of Mephisto.

That’s one of the questions I wanted to ask you guys. [00:30:00] It never materialized. Mephisto never materialized. And that’s what you heard over and over and over again, over the last, like four weeks since about that episode. And I’m sure if

Sumner: you saw the book

Kenric: and old scratchy scratchy on the, on the bunny and, and there there’s a lot of things, elements that go up to the Disney, of course, in fakies crew, never show their hands.

So they were brilliant and not on laughing about it. Which makes you think, Oh, it could be, yeah. Nothing ever material. Yeah.

John: I think that’s very, very much on purpose. You know, they, they like to see things in early and, you know, they didn’t need to reveal with us though in this show. Cause they can know.

Now we know that he’s probably there and there’s seeds for future things for him to come in.

Sumner: I Johnny. I, I, I totally, I totally agree with that. Yeah. I think that’s exactly right. Oh man, when you’re saying that, you know, can you make me think of another thing that I, that I hire? I really liked this episode, but just [00:31:00] as I’m saying that it’s kind of, no, we’re not in the episode in the season.

I think one of the actually. Share on Allo delights of the season was the Agatha all a long reveal on that Munster style theme Chen, which played totally into what Katherine hearts are really good at doing. I think that was probably a high point in the entire show and she’s been like the best thing.

One of the best things, because they don’t, you can fault her. Don’t you can fault Paul Bettany who, by the way, Dick getting the vision. Right. That is tough, man. That is tough. Getting that performance. So Nate perfect. Like he has often people look at Lizzie Olsen, look at Katherine Allen and go, man. They they’re just standing out, but it doesn’t work without him.

You know, that, that line that he had, I think it was in last week’s episode about you know, what is grief? It’s not like, love persevering a that’s a beautifully written line by one of the female show, show runners, authors of the show, by the way. And it was so beautifully [00:32:00] delivered. I think his performance has been amazing.

And the thing that’s the thing you’ve got, everybody’s been great in the show. With the possible exception of the child, actors, sorry, child actors. I’m sure you’re going to be good one day, but all the adults have been amazing. Right. But the three of them, the three essential leads were like Catherine  Bessie.

Just fucking unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, obviously Randall park, Kat Dennings and the lady playing Monica, his name is sketchy with the time being, we’re all brilliant as well, you know, just really good. But the standard performance in this has been very, very high. I think.

John: I agree. I agree. And we haven’t even talked about a monochrome bonus episode at all.

And like the manifestation of her seen her powers and like the bullets go through her. And that was the, like, it was cool looking. It was fricking cool. I’m like wondering what where’s she going? I mean, obviously she’s going to be a captain Marvel too, right? That’s our next appearance. Yeah. Do it there. Is she going to just, is she going to be fighting alongside captain Marvel?

Is she going [00:33:00] to. I mean, we know that she’s going up to the space station just to see theory. This is what they lived with this but what’s, what’s going to come from that. Right. Is, is the other

Sumner: squirrel. Tiana Paris, by the way, that’s her name? She’s, she’s a great actress. I think by the way, if you should, if you’re watching this, you should check her out on a social media.

She’s done a whole bunch of great like Instagram posts and Twitter posts all tied into. So she did a whole, one of her dancing around at home at her kitchen unit to the ag through a long song, which is worth the price of admission alone. And I think one of the things that’s great about 10 Turner Paris, a great about.

Jimmy were great. Great about Randall park. Great about Kat Dennings is they all seem to be having such an amazing time during the show. They seem to be genuinely enjoying themselves, both inside the moment, but also in on the like social media personas. They’re really having fun with it. Yeah, I think he’s awesome.

But I think there’s undoubtedly, undoubtedly going to be involved in the [00:34:00] next captain Marvel, because there’s that huge, like, clue dropped in the first episode in which he appears that she has got some kind of problem with captain Marvel. Yeah. And you remember when the other  some characters are mentioning them to her?

Oh yeah. No, it’s the relating the story of how captain Marvel almost beat Thanos, but then quite the minute her name comes up. She just shuts up and has this funny look on her face, which I’m thinking is probably driven by, Hey, you’re this all powerful being when my mum was dying of cancer, when you come back, it’s worse than having a word with it.

I’m imagining, you

John: know, best friend left.

Sumner: Yeah, how come you’re a best friend and yet I haven’t seen you for the last 30 years. What’s all that about, it’s going to be something like that, right?

Kenric: Yeah. Yeah. It’s going to be an interesting ride. I’m I’m excited to see where we go next, next week. So everybody knows we’re going to have another show because we’re going to go over the making of right.

Or is that the main

Sumner: making of next Friday? Yeah.

Kenric: Which I’m hoping they bring [00:35:00] that back. They, they used to do the making of. All the time with movies. Like I remember watching the making of star Wars and the Makey. Yeah. Predator and the making and they don’t do those as much as they used to.

Sumner: This feels to me like it’s going to be a regular on Disney plus thing, and it’s going to be one of the way they bridge from one series to the next, not to just smash straight in.

Yeah, to have some kind of retrospective. They used to do it a lot in in the UK with Dr. Who and when it was the tenants and the Smith doctors, when it says absolute international peak, they used to have a show called doctor who confidential, literally after each episode, half an hour, talking about how they made the previous show.

So I imagine this is the season ending version of that. And you know, you, hopefully there’ll be, it’ll be worth watching and talking about. Because there’ll be a few more revelations of what’s yet to come.

Kenric: Yeah. David Tennant, just because he said his name is my favorite doc.

Sumner: He’s brilliant. [00:36:00] He’s a great actor.

Kenric: Good. Oh

Sumner: yeah. He’s he’s a fantastic actor. Very, very talented. There’s so much. I’ve got a

John: question for you guys. Oh, this is move now. I wasn’t done. You’re trying to end me. I’m not done yet. Was there anything in this series or in this episode that besides the kids Sumner that you thought was a misstep?

Sumner: I don’t really have anything to say apart from the kids think the kids just because I didn’t think the performances were there and they stood out cause the other performances are so great. I think quite clearly for scheduling reasons. Kat Dennings we that very much. And clearly she shot all her scenes in a certain period of time.

Personally, I would have, I would, I think so. What do you think was a misstep? I, no doubt that was sharing during the reasons why it didn’t happen, but when Monica goes to Jimmy, woo where’s Darcy and it’s like, Darcy’s already let out because she thinks, you know, postmortems or lame or [00:37:00] whatever, actually I would have found it much more satisfying if just for a beat.

If they’d been able to get, you know, cut Dennings for another half day. And I’m basically in that moment, it was Jimmy and Monica and Darcy talking to each other. I think that seemed to work better for me. It still was good, but it was clearly, you know, we’ve you watch enough TV or movies, anything. Ah, there’s clearly a fucking scheduling issue.

It’s like clearly cat Denning shot a hole there, scenes and it brace on that, that last scene, you know, she. She obviously filmed a bit the insert with her and her driving the van, but it’s the only time you see her in the episode, I just would have preferred preferred to see her for another minute or so.

And it closed out on her and Jimmy was sharing a laugh. I think that would have been more satisfying than just, Oh, you know, you know, kind of being in charge. It looks good on your Jimmy. Was Darcy. Oh, she’s fucked up. I think it would have been much better if Darcy would just say, go doesn’t it. This guy is the man to, you know, to me or some, you know, do you know what I’d love [00:38:00] to solve a few unexplained, like mysterious crimes with you, Jimmy, you know?

And it ended in that kind of way I would have been. Yeah. Okay. That’s where it’s at. So that’s my answer, Johnny. How about you?

John: So for me Well, I’m torn, right? Because I, well, I’ll what I’m gonna say is, well, one, I, I liked the fact they went this route. I also don’t like the fact that with this route and that’s with Quicksilver and Ralph boner.


Sumner: Oh yeah. We haven’t talked about that yet. All right. Good.

John: Yeah. Like I like the fact that they totally fucking. Hid that from us. And we, I mean, every week we were wrong, we were hardcore wrong on his character every single week. And then the real, the reveal that he’s actually Ralph boner was the Ralph that Alex is talking about all the time was a really good reveal, but I also, and Alison feel like they just wasted this Evan Peters in this character of, of a, kind of a throw away guy in one division.

This is what I was going to say, but like it’s can’t, but th th I guess that doesn’t stop me from coming back as, as hooks over at all, which I want, I really, really want him to come back. [00:39:00] So mine is not really a misstep. It’s more of a missed expectations of what I thought was going to happen. But I mean, as the show’s done all season long, every time we think we know something, it’s like, Nope, you know, you don’t know shit.

It’s over here. It’s over here. Yeah.

Sumner: I hear you on that. And I, I would describe that as the as the BA and Kingsley Mandarin moments of this show, do you know of me? And the thing that’s important to remember, but the banking’s, the Mandarin moments is ultimately they just unpicked it. Yeah. Cause you remember one of, one of the, when they used to the shorts, whether it’s they don’t do anymore, when they used to do the shorts, one of those shorts.

Completely deconstructs the whole thing about other Mandarin’s not real. Right. And they have that whole thing where he’s being interviewed, but then he gets captured by the real Mandarin, you know, and that ends on that note. So, you know what I mean, that they have got previous for going back in and changing things, you know, but they clearly were doing the banking’s the Mandarin for, for, for that, for sure owner,

John: which is [00:40:00] like

Kenric: with that whole Mandarin thing, because it was like, You’ve got there, setting something up big and.

Sumner: Nothing what? Well, I, I actually think one of the reasons for that is I think the Mandarin is very, very, very tricky to do it, you know, in the present day for the same reason that we were talking about Jimmy in the fact that he first appeared in the yellow cloth, you won’t see any yellow color comics these days because it’s the whole kind of yellow peril villain thing, which is what the Mandarin is.

I mean in today’s enlightened world, quite right. You can’t really have these kinds of, you know, huge, huge Rachel character chores as bad guys. Do you know? To me, it’s like, I think the Mandarin’s very, very tricky. Even if you take the caricature out of it, it’s a very tricky to do properly. I mean, probably

John: sorry, Johnny.

Oh, they are making the Shingleton legend at 10 rings. Watch the tendering Mandarin.

Sumner: Yes. So I guess, you know what I mean? Quite clearly. I mean, I’m [00:41:00] guessing, but. I would, I I’d be fucking flat out amazed if Shang is actually you know, the lost son of Fu Manchu in this movie. I mean, I’m pretty fucking certain that’s not going to happen.

Do you know?

John: I highly doubt that, but, you know, yeah. It’s exact because we are going to get some version of the Mandarin again, in that movie, I assume, because it is to do the 10 rings there, but as it’s going, I assume it’s going to be very different than the comics. Very different than the,

Sumner: than what you had.

It has to be. But also they’ve had five years to think about that and get it right. And to involve the right kind of people on the creative end. So that it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a much more credible deal. Right. Jenna. I mean, yeah, I agree. And the template for doing these things right. And doing them in the right way and doing them in, in a contemporaneous way is what they did with black Panther, you know, so, so that they, they got a team of people, you know, to, to adapt black Panther for whom the life experience is a big part of what that [00:42:00] movie became.

I no doubt that I would imagine that’s what they’re doing with shank G.

John: Yup. Yup. Everything was messed up.

Kenric: No, I, the Ralph Boehner thing was, was, was on my mind that, you know, I, to be honest, I hated it. Right. That was the one part of the show that I hated. I hated that it was just, it was nothing. Yeah, it just, it was, I want him to be clear about it, but it was disheartening in a lot of ways.

I was like, really? That’s what you’re going to do with that. What, and then the way that he’s, you know, she just. The photon just defeats them right away for the most part, once they actually start doing anything. And then he’s just, I don’t know. I was just really disappointed. I was really in that spot.

John: I think we all really wanted him to be Quicksilver from the

Kenric: explanation of why do you have to be that person, then it could have been anybody to do that.

You know, it would have been, you could have, you could have brought back the [00:43:00] actor that played Quicksilver in the ventures, you know, and, and, and you could have done that and it made more sense, but you got a, I dunno, I think with, with the anticipation of the X-Men and mutans coming into the Marvel universe and they’re choosing to do fantastic four, which I think is a fucking mistake.

I think that’s the worst mistake that they’re making that I’ve seen so far, because nobody, my age and younger cares about the fantastic four. Nobody does. Okay, because even anybody who is reading comic books in the eighties really doesn’t care about the fantastic where people who grew up on the fantastic four read the fantastic four and the 16, they care about what’s happening.

You know, they cared about that, but that’s, that’s a group of people that are not going to be watching your movies over and over and over again and go to theaters bunch of times.

John: I, I agree with you there. However, And it’s weird, given the Marvel, given the MC his track record of taking things that nobody gives a shit about and making them good.

I mean, they made guardians of the galaxy. [00:44:00] Cool relevant. Do I need to galaxy was a sh no offensive caters, but it was a boring ass comic. Like there was some cool stuff in it. I remember reading. Yeah. I remember getting him as a kid and like, it was so ridiculous. I read them like, Oh, this is, this is fun, whatever, but I didn’t care about them at all.

I didn’t care about captain America. I didn’t care about Thor. I didn’t care about Ironman, but now they’ve made him really exited relatable and enjoyable. So I, while I agree with you on everything you just said about that for, I don’t, I don’t care about that storyline. Yeah. I have full faith that they’re going to do something that’s gonna make me go, Hey, I

Kenric: like this.

No, I know they’re going to do it. Right. You know what I mean? I know they’re going to make it to where you’re going to love the fantastic four, because that’s the one thing that MCU has learned has proven that they can make you care about that. Just like you were talking about with gags and the galaxy guardians of the galaxy and all that kind of stuff.

I just think when you have the mutants and the X-Men sitting right there, why you choose to do the fantastic four over the X-Men just boggles my mind. Yup. Yup. You know, you’re setting [00:45:00] something up later, but I just, I

WandaVision 9 Combined: don’t

Sumner: the only answer I could give it is that the fantastic four has been done. In a mediocre way and in a very bad way, it’s never been done brilliantly.

Right. Whereas there are very good eczema movies. You know, what I mean to is really good days of future past is good. Logan’s really good. You know, and, and there are, and actually first-class is very good. So, you know, there are at least there are at least four great eczema movies. And, and so I think mate, I would imagine.

That Fagin co Louis Esposito, all those guys where they’re going is shit. We were marble. We should be able to make a great, fantastic four movie and fix all the problems. So I think for them that’s a much bigger win because they go from mediocrity at best and, and some it’s just a total mistake at worst.

And here we go. But I think it’s going to be tough for them to get, right. I think it’s tough for the FF to work in the modern era. Do you know what I mean?

Kenric: X-Men [00:46:00] right. And you can get the mutans right. Then if they flop on fence as a port, it’s not such a big hit. Fantastic for flops. Now that’s going to be a huge hit.

That’s going to be a huge dent.

John: Yeah, well, we’ll have to see, I mean, we’ll have to see it. We, it it’s, I think they’re gonna, I think it would be fine. I really helped that they introduced the characters before the movie. Well,

Kenric: the teaser trailers look fantastic.

John: Yeah. I hope we get to see Reed or Johnny or somebody in another movie or property before that movie to seed them into the universe, but either way.

I mean, I, it’s going to be

Kenric: interesting what Chris Sinsky is going to be an amazing mystery.

Sumner: It’s are they really going to cast him? Cause he would be fantastic if he plays Richard don’t they already have a teaser trailer or did I see a

Kenric: heat? The fan made stuff right now. I hate it. Hate it because they see it.

And the fact that people can take Adobe premier or final cut pro or all these other things and take their, [00:47:00] and take their Sony  and visually create these amazing. Things and then put it out there and then I’m like, I’m excited. And then, Oh, it’s fan made. Fuck. You

Sumner: can have somebody get a really good one over the last week for for for a new verse, the Miami vice the thing has, but, but with all the characters, you know, as they are now, And it was so well done.

I was like, Holy fuck. They bring in Miami vice, ah, this isn’t real, this isn’t fucking real. This is it’s nonsense

Kenric: to say kudos to those guys because the people that you’re doing some of that fiction

Sumner: or that it’s so good, really so good. It’s like somebody did one with a Spider-Man Charlie would say we would go around and do Garfield then as well.

I almost had me, but it’s like, the thing that gives away always is who’s posting it. You know, to me, and it’s always some fucking numnuts, it’s not like Marvel entertainment. It’s not like NBC to me

Kenric: when when a trailer drops, I won’t watch the [00:48:00] keynote or the screen rants, or I go to Warner.

Sumner: I go to them.

He’s got it. Yeah, you have to, yeah.

Kenric: You go to any of these guys that are reposting it one. I just think that’s. I just, I don’t like it. You know, and too, I, I, I, I want to know that what I’m watching is legitimate and it’s because I’ve been burned by this so many times it drives me nuts, even though I got to give it to them because yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

John: Last question for you guys. And then we can wrap up again. Are we done?

Kenric: We had.

John: Oh, we had a great ride on this, on this season, you know, of one division age, a week of us talking to it and all this speculation. Do you think we’ll have the same kind of ride with winter soldier or a 500 soldier?

Sumner: What’s your answer, Kenrick. I,

Kenric: I think that, I think we’ll have a different, it won’t be as visceral. I think one division was very visual. I think it was very you have some emotion tied to [00:49:00] it. I think we’re going to be excited for winter soldier. Like we’re excited for a new lethal weapon to come out, you know?

And when lethal weapon two came out, people were couldn’t wait for that movie to come out because lethal weapon was so good. And. You know, Mel Gibson aside and all that kind of

Sumner: crap. I mean, Oh no, I’ll give some back then in the moment you don’t know what’s coming in the future, you know what I mean?

Kenric: Yeah.

And I just think that he, that I think that’s what w I think winter soldier and Falcon and winter soldier is going to be more like that. I think we’ll be excited. I think we’ll be talking about it. I just, I don’t think it’s not going to have the mystery twist and turns like one division.

Sumner: But my, my answer would be that I actually can’t wait for a fucking when soldier and I bet we easily fill an hour, at least talking about that stuff.

And primarily for two reasons, right? Number one, just talk about one division. One division has been an amazing ride and I’ve really enjoyed, you know, talking to your boys about it. And I really appreciate you bringing me on from episode four or whenever it was, cause I’ve really enjoyed it, [00:50:00] but here’s the thing.

One division is a show I’ve loved. About two Marvel characters who are towards the low end of my interest. You know, I’m not particularly a Scarlet witch fan. I’m not particularly a fan of the vision. Not really. I mean, I’ve loved the vision in the movies and what they’ve done with him, but I don’t really care about those characters too much.

Yeah. But. This portrayal, Elizabeth Olsen and Paul Baton. These portrayal of those two colors made me really interested in them. Right. And that to me is kudos to MCU, kudos, to fake Esposito, all those guys, you know, that they’ve just done a great job of making me care about two characters that were the low end of my Marvel interest.

I don’t know what Falcon, when soldier’s going to be like, but I do know that Vulcan went to soldier, the absolute, maximum upper end of my Marvel interest. They’re two characters that I fucking love from comics that I absolutely fucking love and all my favorite Marvel comics ever. So it will take, you know, it would have to be spectacularly bad.

Ill [00:51:00] imagined poorly delivered for me to be going, ah, shit. I’ve got my say about this. I’m sure that’s not going to be the case. Cause my brain’s full of like, you know, sort of, 80 years of captain America history. And while there’s a long period of time, I didn’t read any captain America because the execution was nowhere near as good as the character.

Right. That’s from about 2000 onwards. Once you get the Brie BayCare or captain America, that’s amazing comics. And that’s what all this shit is based on. So I just can’t wait to see what they’ve taken from those comics and what they’ve innovated and what they’re doing with it. And already that lethal weapon.

So nature. Of of Bucky and and Sam’s relationship. That just looks amazing to me. Yeah. I have really lent hard into the charisma of those two actors who were amazingly charismatic actors, I think, to have the best supporting players in the Marvel universe. Right. So for them to have the whole show wrap around them, that’s fucking brilliant.


Kenric: Yup. I, Sebastian Stan is, as the winter soldier is Bryant. Okay.

[00:52:00] Sumner: And Anthony Mackie is a naturally funny bloke. Do you ever watch him in any of the outtakes or loads of the Marvel antique, so wrapped around him? Cause he’s so naturally funny with all that. He finishes a scene and he goes, right. That’s it cut the check, you know?

And he does that time and tell him again,

Kenric: you know, Sebastian, Stan looks a lot like Mark Hamill when he

Sumner: was young. Yeah. Well, he does. He looks a hell of a lot, like Mark Hamill after his road accident. Yeah. It doesn’t look a lot like Mark Hamill in star Wars, you know that you know, new hope, but they look post, post, post facial reconstruction, Mark Campbell.

He looks fucking exactly. It’s

Kenric: kinda weird. You see the side by side of them and you’re like, Oh my God. Yeah.

Sumner: Oh yeah. And that’s all that the thing, by the way, it’s fascinating to look at how Moore’s original face. In one or rather four, compared to what it was in everything else, his face is fundamentally different, you know, just after it’s shot that movie called that summary at a massive like car crash and his appearance [00:53:00] is actually completely different.

Kenric: It’s very weird. I don’t know what’s going on with Johnny. All of a sudden he’s gone. I’m

Sumner: telling you, I love that headshot though. I bet. I bet the vision would love that head shop would find it very fascinating.

Kenric: He’s got the out-of-focus background. He’s

Sumner: got the, yeah. Now that’s definitely portrait mode, you know, to me.

Absolutely. This is corporate now that that’s John Horsley, the third running for Senate. Exactly.

Kenric: If you vote for me, I promise you will. And every belly in a tax is going down by at least 5%.

Sumner: Yeah. This YouTube video was produced by citizens in support of John, John 30. And it’s a J H three.

Kenric: Are you, is he back.

Sumner: You know what John normally does. He normally enormously messages on FB. So I’m just going to see if you sent us a message of any ass. Oh yeah. He says, go ahead, wrap up. I’ve had to shut off my cam for a second. Oh, okay. Okay.

Kenric: Well [00:54:00] we do need, we do need a wrap up. It’s it’s it’s come to that time. Yeah, I very much appreciate you joining again.

We’ll see you next week here. Make mine Marvel TV.

Sumner: And I very much appreciate you inviting me Kenrick and, and, and John invited me and I’ve, I’ve really enjoyed all of these have been great. Yeah. Something to look forward to my Friday night on my Saturday night, rather after I’ve gone for a long walk and I’ve after I’ve had several pints and, or several large whiskey and Ginger’s which I’ve actually got.

Non-lab nice. Delicious though. Very good. Rye whiskey, actually rye, whiskey and ginger. It’s the way forward.

Kenric: There you go. There you go. All right, guys, we’ll see you guys next week.

Sumner: Yeah. See you next week, brother, you take care of yourself. You’re the main Kenrick

Kenric: there. I stopped the live stream. Hey, before we, before you take off.


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