Westworld talk with Renee and Melissa!

Westworld – Renee and Melissa

Melissa: [00:00:00] Welcome back to spoiler country. I’m here with Renee I’m Melissa, where we are gonna dive into one of our favorite shows. Westworld. Hey Renee.

Renee: Oh, Hey Melissa. Don’t mind me.

just over here enjoying some videos. Ooh, what

Melissa: are, what are we listening

Renee: to? Oh I’m so glad you asked. This is, that was a little bit of the intro to Westworld and I’m so excited that we’re doing this Todd today on Westworld. I’m sure we’ll go all over the place as we always do on spoiler country.

But I it’s something about that intro that hooks me every time. Mm-hmm like, usually I skip intros. I will skip, you know, like you fast forward through the opening credits I never do with Westworld. I never, because that same theme music, the, the graphics of like the weird white. You know, forming of the [00:01:00] bodies, everything just like so good.

Melissa: It’s the freaking best. Yeah. It’s like, there’s three shows that I never skipped that intro to it’s Westworld game of Thrones and stranger things like the music, whoever, I mean, we know we could look it up and, and credit them, but you can look it up yourselves, but anyways, the music is amazing. The producers do a great job with that intro and just, it pulls you into the story and, you know, I have to say I’ve been, I’ve been reading like a lot of articles and stuff and one headline that really caught my attention in that I agree with.

And I’m sure you’ll agree with too, is Westworld got its swagger back this

Renee: season. Yes. Right. I, I definitely agree with that.

Melissa: Yeah. Like, I mean, season three, I have to be honest. And I’m sure a lot of people, a lot of fans of the show probably agree. I’ve read the the Reddit forums. Season three was really strange.

It was, you know, obviously It, it, it just didn’t make a whole lot of sense. I mean, none of the seasons really make a lot of sense, I guess, to the extent. Yeah. But like [00:02:00] creatively, it didn’t make a lot of sense. And I was kind of like on the, you know, end of like, I don’t know if I’m gonna keep watching Westworld at this point, you know, cuz season three just like was sort of lackluster and then boom, they came out with season four and I was like, oh, watch the first episode, you know, give it a, give it a chance.

And it hooked me like right back in and and they they’ve got that like feel again, I think from like season one and two, like that, that same feeling I’m getting from it.

Renee: Yeah, well, I will say so I started rewatching the first season with my partner because, you know, she wanted to know like, what was it about, right.

Why am I so to this show? Yeah. And watching that very first episode of season one. So good. So good. First of all, but then I’m seeing so many callbacks to season four. And for those of you who have not watched season four, please note, we will be spoiling. spoiling it all. It’ll spoiling all of Westworld up until this gets

Melissa: released episode four.

Yeah. Yeah. Four episodes [00:03:00] down that we’re gonna be chatting about. Yes. We spoiling it all,

Renee: but the. It just like season four has really that essence of season one. And absolutely now that I’m watching both of them kind of simultaneously, I can really see that. And it’s so good. It is really good.

Melissa: Yeah. You know, I was a super fan from, from season, season one, right off the bat, you know, I have this massive fascination with the wild west.

So, that was like a big thing for me that drew me in right away was like, and I’m big on

Renee: AI. So

Melissa: yeah. So yeah. And I’m like, oh, the wild west you know, growing up, I used to go to old Tucson in Arizona, which was essentially like west world, except, you know, you didn’t get to like murder the people that worked there, like the host , you know what I mean?

It was like normal. I, I would think

Renee: that.

Melissa: Yeah, but it was just you know, it’s always been something I’ve always been fascinated with is, is the wild west. I love Western movies. And so when Westworld came out, I was like, oh my God, this [00:04:00] is like the perfect, you know, show for me. And I started taking notes, like , I literally had like a notebook next to me and I would write all my like theories down.

And I actually came up with the whole Arnold Bernard thing, like way before, you know, it was even really being talked about. I did like an anagram of his name and all this stuff. Yeah. It was like super nerding out on it. So I do like how, like you said, I think in season four, they’re doing a lot of throwbacks to season one.

There’s like so many little Easter eggs and so many like little tributes to things that happened in the first season. Yeah.

Renee: Well, and you know, something that I think is, you know, one of the reasons why people love Westworld and just The nature of the show is that it always keeps you guessing mm-hmm right.

And so it has this sort of element of, you’re always wanting to know what’s gonna happen. The, you know, it’s very rare that you can predict it even, you know yeah. Any of the seasons. Well, and especially the, [00:05:00] off the rails third season, but like even totally, I think even if you thought you knew something right.

It, it didn’t turn out exactly the way you

Melissa: thought either. Right? Oh, right. However,

Renee: so I think for me, you know, one of the, one of the classic lines of Westworld is are you questioning the nature of your reality? Yes. Right? Like that is like such a quintessential line from the show. And it’s like, yes, you should be questioning everything in the show.

yeah. And

Melissa: then you think questioning and everything, like it also, I think people like the show, because it kind of makes you think about real life. Right. The, and, and how you know that it’s been philosophers and, and people have speculated, are we in a simulation? You know, are we in the matrix so to speak or are we all hosts?

Are we being controlled? Do we really have free will things like that. So, cuz you know, at, at some point before the. Become sentient before they become awakened, you know, in season [00:06:00] one, they, they don’t realize that they are reliving the same day, every single day. Right. They don’t, they’re not aware of it until, you know, Maeve and, and them start like waking each other up.

But so I think people are drawn to that too, because that’s something I think we ponder in real life, as well as we think about like outer space and aliens and technology and how it’s like, you know, become so advanced in AI and all that stuff. Right. Like, it’s just, it’s kind of a crazy thing to think about really

Renee: well.

And I think too, like if we think about the producer JJ Abrams, right. Who mm-hmm had, you know, did lost and, you know, genius did. Yeah. Alias, right. There’s, you know, I think he’s really come into his body of work. Right. Like he’s really developed as a producer and right. I think there’s a sense of. Being able to Polish that.

Right, right. And really have a, like this sense of, oh, this is what you can do when you really have all the resources [00:07:00] and the best writers and everything, you know, at your disposal.

Melissa: So, yeah, absolutely. But also, I mean, the creators of this show, I mean, are just how they come up with this stuff. Like, you know, I mean, obviously this was loosely based on, you know, Michael Creighton’s mm-hmm , book, and then that original movie with Yale Brenner, which I still have not seen the original Westworld.

I know it’s so bad, but it’s no. I just have not, I have not seen that movie. It’s okay. We won’t tell anyone. It was like in 1970 something. And I actually think I have it on DVD. it’s

Renee: also streaming on HBO max.

Melissa: I saw that. I totally saw that. But yeah, but I think that the writers and the creators and stuff to be like constantly, they took that concept and like flipped it on its head and have just pushed it to a whole different level.

And I think like initially, [00:08:00] you know, when I started watching this show, it was, it was all about like the worlds, right. We were all like, oh, what’s gonna be the next world. And what’s gonna happen. And then now flash forward to like season four, I’m like, I’m less concerned about the worlds and more concerned about like, who’s a human, who’s a host, what’s going on.

Like who’s gonna survive. Who’s gonna win. You know, mm-hmm, .

Renee: It’s creepy. Yeah, I, no, I totally know. And, but I think that’s like, oh, I will just like credit to the season one folks like the creative team in season one. Mm-hmm because they built west, you know, you say like, oh, we were all about the world.

Right, right. And I think that was because the Western feel, you know, you’re talking about how you like westerns and, and it’s called west world. Right. Right. So I think they really did a great job of bringing you into west world. Right. And like wanting to be in [00:09:00] that world and wanting, you know, like the scenery and the costumes and the lighting and, you know, like they shot in a lot of places where old Western films are shot.

And so I think like, You, you were so invested in it because they want mm-hmm like, it almost makes me think they were just like masterminding this whole, like yeah. Story arc. Because like, as a viewer, just as like the story is we were invested in Westworld in the park. Yeah, right. Yeah. Because we were diverted from like, what was the real thing going on?

Yeah.

Melissa: Right now. And they, they even took it so far as to create a website called, oh my God. Yes. Destinations website. I went to it. I immediately jumped on it. And then like, when you go on it, they, they treat you like, you’re a potential guest in the park. Like it’s very immersive and role playing, you know, ish.

And you know, they’re like, oh, this, [00:10:00] this world, and that world’s coming soon, this one’s under construction. And then you can, there’s like an AI feature where you can ask questions, you know, to the. To the AI thing of the website. And it’s very cool because it just really immerses you into, into Westworld, you know,

Renee: not to bring up the boys, but to bring up the boys because your favorite, everyone who, anyone who listens to our toss, you know, I’m gonna talk about the boys because it’s my favorite show.

Absolutely. But they did a similar thing, you know, with the whole bought industries and like they had, you know, whole YouTube channel that was bought industries, YouTube channel. Oh really? I didn’t know that. That’s cool. And I, I love when, you know, we get this sort of. Layers of media with a show, especially when a show is so, detailed.

And it’s like, okay, we’ve created this like super agency or this like evil mastermind company. Right? Like, we’re gonna bring that [00:11:00] out of just your television and onto this social media platform. And actually I’m gonna like shout out to the office, the us office, because they were one of the first TV shows that did that.

They had like a D Mifflin site oh, that’s cool. They had a whole like Mifflin. I like you could order paper kind of thing. And I, I just love when a TV show does that because it, yeah. Just further immerses you into that world and gives you that extra bits, like of juiciness of like, Ooh, like let me dive further

Melissa: into the fandom.

So I love that. Yeah. I love that too. It makes yeah. It’s well, it’s kind of similar to like, Remember when I came to visit you right before the pandemic. And well, we had that fabulous brunch and drag queen show, which was amazing. And then, you know, we, we stumbled out of there and all of a sudden there was like a friend’s reunion happening across the street from us.

[00:12:00] And they had completely rebuilt central perk and had Gunther there, like live the actual person that played Gunther serving coffee, serving coffee. And I remember we took a bunch of pictures and walked around and it was the coolest thing, cuz I was like, I feel like we’re literally in the show friends right now.

And it just added to like my love of that show, you know? And I,

Renee: I mean, I think this like really plays into Westworld, but just in general, I think people are always looking to maybe like have more of their favorite things and have more engagement, you know, outside of just the TV content, because it’s like, yeah.

Oh, like, I want more than just the show. I wanna, you know, interact on social media, have a game, or have mm-hmm , you know, these other things that I can do experience yeah. Like fan experiences and, you know, Sandy a ComicCon right. Like

Melissa: how would it be to have. Like, I hope like, you know, if [00:13:00] any producers of Westworld have decided to listen, to our wonderful show I think it would be really cool to have like a Westworld theme park, like an actual, you know, Disneyland type theme park where they reenact things from the show, you know, from the different parks and how fun, like it would be so popular.

People would go to that.

Renee: I have like this like weird. Memory flashback of animatronic, you know, sort of like people at Disneyland. Yeah. Or, you know, like, and I’m like pirates with the Caribbean, right. The old, and I’m like, but like the updated new version of that, where it’s like a part of the park where you can be in

Melissa: Westworld.

Yeah. Like kind of like how just in has and I haven’t been to it yet, but that part of the park, that’s all star wars, right? Yeah. Like it’s, mm-hmm, , I’ve seen the documentary on it and it just looks amazing. And they’ve, they literally immerse the guests where they make you part of it, where the storm troopers come up to you and act like you’re in trouble and you have to like run from them.

And, you know, I think, oh, that’s so cool. It’s like, you’re living in a [00:14:00] video game, in a. So I think like a Westworld theme park would do really well. I think, yeah, I may or may

Renee: not have done the Jedi training. you believe you? It was like me and a bunch of eight year olds and I have no

Melissa: shape. I just wanna fly the dead star

Renee: yeah.

Really badly. I think definitely. You know, in this age of like, we have all this media at our fingertips. Yeah. Right. Like, and a show like Westworld is very appealing. I think mm-hmm because it it’s like, oh, here’s how you can get away from all that. But still feel like you’re. You’re experiencing all of it at the same time.

And I think that’s, you know, this idea of creating fake reality, right? Like if I want to really meta on it, this that’s what social media is. Right. And so we [00:15:00] have Westworld, which shows us, you know, here you can live in this world and you can live, you know, your fantasies and your dreams. And mm-hmm, , you know, have this gritty experience that you don’t get to have anymore because we’re all on social media or all in our devices

Melissa: or yeah.

You know what happened? Right. And it also points out a very important thing as to. Just the whole like concept of like what people do when they think no one’s watching. Right? Mm. Like just that whole concept of like, oh, well they’re just robots. I can just do whatever I want to them. And it brings like, people’s true.

Or I won’t say, yeah, true. Nature’s darker sides to their natures out. And he saw that with, you know, back in season one with with William before he became the man in the black hat, right? Yeah. When he chose the white hat and he was in love with Dolores and he was, he would never do anything to hurt her or assault her.

And then, you know, Logan was like the bad boy. [00:16:00] He was like, oh fuck them. They can, we can do whatever we want to them kind of a thing. And it, it kind of makes you, you know, think about that as a society of like, you know, if we had a place like that, you know, there would be people acting like that, you know, and even though.

These aren’t robots that have like robotic limbs that we can see are robots. Like they look like people, like they literally were so advanced in Westworld that the hosts looked like humans. And yet, because these, you know, guests knew that they weren’t, they chose to, you know, treat them like in such a viable way.

And it’s just interesting to kind of see how human nature works in that sense. And I think Westworld does a really good job of, of, of playing that out. You. Yeah.

Renee: Well, and it, you know, it gets back to this idea of like that Westworld plays with all the time, which is what is human. Yes. Right. And what, you know, what do we classify as human and or what is consciousness, right.

And empathy. Yeah. [00:17:00] And what do we care for and what do we, you know, why do we make these random decisions that this is something that we will preserve or care for or say is human mm-hmm and this isn’t right. Yeah. And it just I mean, I think especially, and so can’t talk about Westworld without talking about Mave, who is one of the most iconic, I think like only one of the most iconic characters on Westworld, but just in television in general.

I think I have that character

Melissa: so deep. I just have to say I have loved Tandy Newton since that first time I ever saw her. She was a sort of side character in interview with the vampire. Oh,

Renee: interesting.

Melissa: Yeah. When back that, when Louis the scene in the beginning of the movie, when Louis first is getting like the blood lust, you know, and he goes back to his home in new Orleans and Lata follows in [00:18:00] there.

And there’s like this whole scene where they’re sitting at his, you know, table in the house and and all the servants are just really nervous cuz they can sense there’s something evil about this Lata guy, right. This little stat character. And she’s like one of the servants in his house. And that was like the first time I ever saw her.

And I remember thinking, God, this woman is gorgeous, such a good actor. And you know, I think she maybe had one or two lines and that was that. And then after that, It might have been a year or two later. I can’t remember exactly, but she’s just started popping up in a lot more things. And I’ve just been a fan of her since day one.

So anyways, and, and Mave is like, there’s no one else that could have, could play Mave. Like she’s she’s Mave yeah,

Renee: yeah. I mean, she was in crash. I think that was kind of her breakout.

Melissa: Yes, yes. Role. She excellent in that. I

Renee: remember her from Chronicles of tic because of course you and I are sci-fi geeks.

Oh my

Melissa: God. You know how much I love in diesel? Come on now. I know.

Renee: But yeah, I think, [00:19:00] you know, her character and like her character’s relationship with her child, right? Like being this sort of really pivotal, you know, sort of journey for her. And it’s like, I think that that role and that whole story line really defines a lot of what.

You know how Westworld sees the world, right? Or like, like if you look at Westworld through Mae’s story and through Maeve’s lens, I think that is, that is where you can capture what reality is or what, you know, like that’s a good point. I feel like point she’s the realist of, of all of them. Because if you go back to season one again, she’s the first the first, you know, robot or host yeah.

Host. Yeah. To gain, like, to figure out what’s going on. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Cause she gets woken up. In the lab. Yeah. [00:20:00] And so I think, yeah, her character. Yeah.

Melissa: I just go on and on. No, you make a good point too. And it’s very similar. There’s like, I feel like there’s a interesting parallel to where like, just as like when the human guests come in and they are, you know, asked to choose the white or the black hat per se or the white or the black outfit, and that’s just sort of like a, you know, metaphor for like pretty much how they’re gonna behave in the park essentially.

Right. Mm-hmm I feel like the house are similar. Like you have house like Mave. Who are pure. And even though all these terrible things have been done to her by humans, she doesn’t want to eradicate all humans. Like she, she does not have a malicious bone in her body. Like she’s toughest shit, and she’s gonna fight, and she’s gonna knock you out if you get in her way, but she’s not on this, like, you know, hunt to destroy all humans.

Whereas you have, you know, certain versions of Dolores and and other characters that, you know, that want to, [00:21:00] you know, punish all humans for what was done to them. And you can understand why they, you know, why they would think that way, but it’s, it is choosing the path of darkness rather than light.

And so it is that sort of white hat versus black hat. I think even with the host too, you know,

Renee: Well, and okay. We just have so much to say about this show so much. I think it is so good. And that’s why I love it. But yes, another theme that comes up all the time is this idea of being more like gray mm-hmm right.

Like that it’s not white, it’s not black, right? Yeah. That even Mave has made some. Evil decisions, quote unquote, you know, or right. Even the good guy who’s played by James Martin.

Melissa: Oh yeah. Petty. Yeah. The like party five guy, James Marson. Yeah, yeah.

Renee: He, even though he’s like this ultimate good character quote unquote, and like mm-hmm, so devout to Dolores, he still does like a bunch of, you know, messed up things [00:22:00] yeah.

Right in that pursuit. And so I think, you know, this idea of what is good mm-hmm and what is bad and how do you justify your actions, you know, based on whether someone is human or not. Right? Yeah. I just eat that up.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it, it is you’re right. It’s. Well, you have like one extreme to another, and then you have the people that are in between that.

Like, I think for the most part, you know, and we’ve talked about this before and just in the characters that I write as well, you know, you have people have good and bad sites to them and you can, I mean, we could go into like star wars references right now about this. I mean, there’s just so much we could talk about with like the whole good and evil.

And I think that most people possess both and it’s just what you choose to do, you know, when you get up every day. But then there are the extremes like the, the Wyatt version of Dolores, right. That like burns the whole town down and kills everything and it and then you have. You know, the, just the, the opposite [00:23:00] extremes.

And then you have like the Teddys who are like, I’m generally good, but like, if he pissed me off or if my woman tells me I need to go do this, I’m gonna go do it, you know, kind of a thing. Yeah. Cause I mean, most of the bad shit he did was for Dolores, you know? So yeah, it is like the morally gray, but then there are the super villains, right?

Like the man in the black hat. Yeah. Human, human William. And now we can

Renee: say host William host, William, which is a whole nother, we love host William

Melissa: nother bag of Dick.

But yeah. I mean, you know, I feel like they he’s like a super villain, I think in both incarnations he’s a fucking, super

Renee: villain. Right. I mean, right. Because Westworld brought out his true nature. Yeah. Which was all, which was the nice guy was always an act mm-hmm right. So

Melissa: even, even Logan in the end, wasn’t a super villain.

No, he was a fake villain.

Renee: He was a

Melissa: fake Villa. Yeah. He was, I love Ben Barnes, so he could be whatever Villa he wants to be. , you

Renee: know, what’s [00:24:00] funny is when my partner was watching it, she’s like, is that the guy from the,

Melissa: the darkness series? is that the guy from Melissa’s dreams?

Renee: Yeah. And I was like, yes, that, that is that guy.

She’s like, he plays a really good, bad guy and I’m like, yes, he, he does. Yes, he does. I was like, and today’s taught as always brought to you by Renee drinking white claw and having a great

Melissa: time and Melissa drinking rose some other form of white wine. And it always comes back to Ben Barnes and the darkling.

Renee: We could just, we could do a whole nother tot on Ben Barnes and just on Ben barns. I mean the Punisher and, and, and the, what, you know, always sells folks. If you are out there writing a character is yes. A. Like mostly dark character, right? Someone who’s generally evil and generally, you know, on the dark side, [00:25:00] but then like you can just get these glimpses right.

Of humanity and these glimpses of them doing anything for the person they love. Oh, nice. It gets you every time

Melissa: it gets you every time. It’s like, you know, that quote that I love so much. And I just do edit a video on TikTok with it. And a man just saw it. Mm-hmm oh my God. And it it’s one it’s like, no, you gotta say it.

You have to say it. Okay. So the quote is. A hero will sacrifice you to save the world, but a villain will sacrifice the world to save you. And that is why we love our villains. That’s why

Renee: we love Ben Barnes right there for us.

We

Melissa: love Ben Barnes. Thank you me up. Thank you. Which

Renee: you

Melissa: know, this podcast is not been, this is not a Ben Barnes four by Ben Barnes in way shape or form ,

Renee: but okay.

You know what? Shout out to Teddy, who I do also was like completely gone last season mm-hmm and [00:26:00] we thought he was gone, done, gone forever. He is back this season, which I’m so excited for because I am terrible. She. Is the light version of Ben Barnes, right? Like, yeah, he is the one who will also burn down everything, but in a good way, for the one

Melissa: he loves burn it down, like softly soft, like nicely

Renee: try not to burn things down.

Like he’ll like avoid sorry, burning. Yeah. Whereas like Ben Barnes is like die, light it up. Yeah. Run bitches. Yeah. Teddy is more of the like, Ooh, I’m sorry. I had to kill you,

Melissa: but you know, love I’m in, I’m in love. I’m in love.

Renee: And it, it’s so nice to see him back and see his interaction with dolo. Well, she’s not Dolores, but know I see them again together because I think too, you know, I always appreciate good chemistry with actors and yes, I think the two of them have a really good chem, a really good dynamic and a really good chemistry that we saw.

Yeah. [00:27:00] All through. Not as much through season one, but through season two. And I, I just like, I’m excited to see where their story’s gonna go, because I think it really has the potential to bring us back to their origins and their love story, which

Melissa: I think is I think, okay, this is where it gets comp. This is where it gets complicated.

We’re now

Renee: entering the fan theory part of our show

Melissa: well, okay. So this is where it gets complicated because first of all, in order to discuss Christina, AKA, you know, Evan, Rachel Wood, who yeah. Who was Delores in order to discuss Christina and Teddy 2.0. You have, we have to address like two different things.

A, we don’t know what timeline this is in. Right? Mm-hmm true. So there have to, we never know in Westworld what time we never know. When is it? We don’t know. We, we never know no clue. I love that about the show we can speculate. And there are a couple different theories. Well, there’s a lot of [00:28:00] different theories going around, but like the more prominent ones, one theory is that the Christina Teddy timeline is actually happening in the, in the past, like the way, way back, like to where, like before Westworld was even created.

And she was like a first prototype essentially of like Dolores. But that theory was kind of debunked a little bit because, well, I not really debunked. So when Dolores or sorry, Christina, when Christina and Teddy sit down for dinner you know, they go on this like date they’re set up on by Maya.

Yeah, right? Yeah. Who

Renee: there is something shady happening with her? Yeah. I don’t know what it is. Yeah. But there’s something, yeah. There’s

Melissa: something happening. I think Maya is a house for sure. So when Christina drops her lipstick tube and it rolls, it’s just like the can of condensed milk that Teddy picks up in Westworld.

Right? Like, did you catch [00:29:00] that? You know? Yeah. He drops the lipstick, it rolls all around, across the floor. He picks it up and it’s like that scene in the very beginning of season one, you know, when they first, supposedly, you know, when they first meet in their loop. Right. And they sit down and he is looking at her, like he knows who she is and the way he’s talking and she’s just like, oh, you look really familiar.

So it’s like, I don’t know if that would. Validate the theory of this is happening before, I guess like still could cuz maybe they had other incarnations together before Westworld. You know what I mean? But yeah. I don’t know.

Renee: I, I don’t, I don’t think it’s them before Westworld, but I do think

Melissa: that maybe

Renee: there’s some like jump in the timeline with them.

Yeah.

Melissa: Right. Or it could be future. That was the other one because obviously as we know in the very last scene of episode four Charlotte ha one the robots one,

Renee: I will say though, if I’m [00:30:00] gonna have to submit to the robot apocalypse and TES Thompson is in charge yeah. Right. You know, I, I will say

sign

Melissa: me up.

If I can have a Teddy, then

Renee: I will take the Tessa Thompson

Melissa: robot apocalypse all, all day, every day, such a badass. It’s odd.

Renee: She’s yeah. Okay. Speaking of like evil, but badass, super she’s a super, super villains. Yeah. Yeah. Tessa Thompson right up there, but then also has like, will show just enough vulnerability occasionally mm-hmm where it just, Ugh.

I can’t get enough of it for sure.

Melissa: Well, and okay, so this is the other, you know, interesting thing is that, you know, we know Tessa Thompson, when she first came into the show, she was Charlotte ha and she was human and she was just sort of like this gung ho executive, just trying to do her job. And then somewhere along the way, she became a host.

And so I, I think it is actually a proven theory [00:31:00] that she is her consciousness is, is a Dolores consciousness. That’s why everyone calls her Holos. Oh, in like when you read articles. And so I, I don’t re I think it had something to do with, remember at the end of season two, when they had all those little silver yeah.

Balls of consciousness that they took. Yeah. So apparently Charlotte ha died in Westworld. Right. And her body was recreated. And one of Dolores’s evil versions of herself, like a Wyatt type of aver was put into Charlotte ha’s body. So she’s not technically Charlotte Hale anymore. She’s like a version of dolos.

Well,

Renee: and this, I feel like this goes back to like, You know, especially if we look at the conversation with Teddy and Christina, right, right. That I think there’s multiple versions of all these people everywhere. Yes. Right. And so that’s my fan theory is that this is just a version of Charlotte. This is a version of Teddy.[00:32:00]

Yeah. Right. And there’s multiple consciousnesses and multiple hosts and, and clones. Yeah. Like that. Yeah. They’re all, there’s all multiple things happening all at the same time, because we can’t have things be simple. Of course, in Westworld. No course not. There has to be like a Charlotte that is Dolores and then a Charlotte that is Charlotte.

And then I should host Charlotte. Right. We have to have all these different

Melissa: ways, all these different things. Yeah. And then I think that no matter what happens. Even though Lisa joy, who is one of the creators has said multiple times, like for a fact that Dolores is actually dead. Like the, the Dolores that we knew that, you know, they, that died in season at the end of season three.

She’s like that, that is, she is dead. She’s not coming back. And she is expressed multiple times in articles that Christina is not Dolores. Right. Even though it’s played by the same actor. And so I find that interesting because they don’t ever really ever say anything deliberately. [00:33:00] Like they’re they never like say matter of fact things, they’re always just like, oh, well we we’ll have to wait and see, but she was like, no, this is a fact Dolores is dead.

So that’s interest. In a sense of like,

Renee: okay, no, I’m sorry. They also said that Teddy was dead for an entire season. Right.

Melissa: And now Teddy’s that, this is my point. I think that they lied. They’re lying. Liars. Think, I think they’re like being morally gray is what they’re doing. I think that they are saying like the character of Dolores is dead.

The character of Teddy is dead. But they’re using these actors the same actors to portray like versions of them, but like the consciousness is different, you know what I mean? So it’s not the Dolores that grew up on the ranch in Westworld, but their father and, you know, fell in love with, with Teddy and then fell in love with the man and the white hat, then the black hat.

You know what I mean? Like, yeah, this is like dolo. It’s just not Del, they’re not calling her Dolores. They’re calling her [00:34:00] something else, but it’s essentially a prototype of Dolores. You know what I mean? I think they’re just trying to twist it to confuse us really is what’s happening. You know, they’re doing a great job.

You’re doing a wonderful job

Renee: of that. A storyline that has been less confusing. I, I will say that it’s like a little more direct is the, the Jeffrey Wright. Storyline. He is,

Melissa: oh my gosh. What’s his character.

Renee: Bernard Bernard. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Previous course I, yeah, of course. I remember him from hunger games.

yeah. Even though he is like a very prestigious actor and it’s been amazing things, I’m like, oh yeah, the guy from hunger games. So he, I feel like his storyline has been really consistent as well. Like in thinking about like Maeve as being a, a good lens to like look things through. Right. I feel like Bernard’s character is also a good character to look at things from like, he’s like, I am always about.

The the bottom line and finding, [00:35:00] you know, like the truth in humanity or saving the world or whatever it is. And I, I think his character is just so endearing. And so I just, I love his, I wanna see him more on the screen. Sometimes me too.

Melissa: I know he doesn’t as much. Well, I think that they do that on purpose because they can’t give away too much of his storyline.

His storyline is, I think is gonna be so crucial to the end, the whole end game. Yeah. That they’re just feeding us little snippets of it because they just can’t give away too much. But yeah, I completely agree with you on that. I think we’re, whereas Maeve is like the heart of the story. I think that Bernard is like the moral compass of it, you know, that is such a good

Renee: analogy.

Thank you. I love that. Okay. I am cut. We’re done. You saw we’re

Melissa: done all yeah, yeah. No, and you know, I have to say like, When I, when I’ve been watch, I’ve been watching this season, you know, it’s only four episodes in, but I feel like it’s already been, I can’t believe it’s only been four episodes, actually.

I’m like, it feels like it’s [00:36:00] already been a whole

Renee: season. They’ve done so much in these four episode. My episodes of season four. Yeah.

Melissa: I wrote, you know, I write down my notes as I was telling you. And I wrote down notes for, for these. And I literally what came to mind, just watching, like, as we were talking about the world building and the feel and the tone, I thought it, it was like mad max meets.

Total recall meets like the great Gadsby.

Renee: Oh, I, you know what I mean? Love that. Yeah. I definitely get the mad max vibes for sure.

Melissa: I think that’s yes. Yeah. I mean, with the Bernard storyline, you get the mad max and then you’ve got like future world, which is very total recall ish. You know, where you can like wipe your memories or, you know, have like different, you know, consciousness put in you and all that kind of stuff.

And then you’ve got like Westworld transformed into like the prohibition era, which also is another favorite era of mine.

Renee: So I know you’re just loving, like you’re like, can I leave

Melissa: in that one too? Thank you very much. I wanna go [00:37:00] there. I don’t wanna like really do any, I just wanna like sit in a chair and have a drink and like watch it all unfold around me, you know?

That’s my problems.

Renee: I’d go to Westworld or this like roaring twenties world. And I would just be at the bar the whole time, just like, woo. This is fun. I’m gonna sit here

Melissa: and have a drink. Thank you. And like, knowing us, we would be like, we would be joining like the hosts cause right. We would be like, fuck these humans.

We’re like, yeah, let’s get ’em right. yeah, we’d be more on their side, I think. Yeah. So this last episode, just as we were saying before we even hit record, just blew my mind, like Uhhuh. I mean it validated a couple theories that I had already had, but at the same time I had one of those like, oh, oh, like moments like

Yeah. You know what I mean? Like the, whereas like you kind of already knew, but like you didn’t realize it. And then he just became like sentient of it at the moment that it hit, you know what I mean? You

Renee: know what I’m talking about? Well, yeah, and I, [00:38:00] this. I felt this way in season three, but I, I know a lot of people didn’t, but I will say in every season, I do feel like when they finally get to the point, which sometimes maybe takes a little longer.

Okay. Or is a little more, more convoluted. Yes. That when they finally do make the reveal, it’s always, the payoff is so good. Right? Yeah. Like to me, the payoff just, you know, in season one of the whole like Ries and the MAs. Yeah. And like, you know, it was all just this, like, let’s get the host, like let’s let the host have agency, right.

Like, yeah. It was, it was all such a good payoff in my opinion. And I think mm-hmm that season four will also have a similar. You know, just really great payoff in terms of yeah. What they’re building towards. And because again, I don’t wanna give like too much away I do and I don’t. No,

Melissa: we do. We’re having it all away.

I just [00:39:00] like, if you haven’t watched it by now, then why are you listening to this episode? this first super fans that are caught up. I’m sorry. Yeah. Well, I

Renee: just, maybe in the sense that, like, I think one of the things that I’m really excited to see, you know, regardless of what we saw in season or in episode four, right.

Is how they’re gonna use Maeve’s character. Right. Because we already know that Mave she’s the weapon she’s like. Because she has this she’s always been the other, right? Yeah. Like the next level of host, right. Where like the, the one with the consciousness and that’s been true. She can control

Melissa: other hosts.

Renee: Yeah. And that’s been true since season one and I think, yeah, that’s what I love about that. Again, I’m just gonna keep bringing it back to her, but I think that that’s, what’s so great about her character is these characters that are in between spaces and are in between good

Melissa: and bad and how [00:40:00] well, and that’s why like navigate it.

That’s why in that scene where she. You know, chooses to sacrifice her herself for Caleb, essentially the whole like villain sacrificing, you know, the world to save you, even though she’s not really the villain, but I guess, are they, that’s another thing I wanna discuss, cause I’m not a hundred percent sure on that, but, but in that scene where she basically is like, I just need to get rid of this fucking asshole man and black guy, and I’m just gonna blow us all up.

And I thought only the reason why I didn’t get upset or angry or even shut a tear was cuz I was like, NA her story’s not over. Yeah. Like I just, I feel like I know Westworld enough now. And and this is, and I wasn’t even like literally even seeing, coming what came at the end. Right? Like I had no idea that was gonna.

And I liked how they tied those two timelines together at the end. And I didn’t think they’d do that so early on in the season, to be honest I thought they were gonna string us along a lot [00:41:00] longer, but but yeah, so in that moment, this is what I love so much about ma I know how powerful she is. And I knew in that moment that like her sacrifice was, was great.

And but I knew she’d be back. Like I just knew, you know what I mean? I wasn’t worried. I wasn’t like, oh fuck ma it’s not on the show anymore. Like, I was like, no, screw that. They’re gonna bring her back. Like, come on now it’s me. So I didn’t even waste like a tear cause I’m like, yeah. What I did not see coming was.

Was what happened right after that with with Caleb, with Caleb. Yeah. That was kind of see I’ve gone back and forth on like, if he was a host or not. And I’ve definitely thought, oh, he could be a host, maybe not. But I wasn’t sure in which timeline he was a host. Right. Cause I was even thinking back to season, season three, even when he was running around with Dolores, I thought he was a host.

I thought he was a host

Renee: fan too. Yeah. And I think. One of the things that this season is gonna really throw into question mm-hmm right. Which like se like the fourth episode really like brought us to that moment. What, and I think that’s why it’s so good. We’re doing a [00:42:00] talk right now on it. Yeah. At this point in the season mm-hmm cause we’re like just about halfway and they really like left us on this.

like, who is a host and who isn’t exactly. Right. And I, and I think like the things that you’re talking about with Caleb, I feel like are the same things we’re talking about with Charlotte. Ha

Melissa: yes. Because it’s like, and Christina

Renee: and Christina and you know, maybe even all of them for all we know, right.

Like, yeah. This is like, who is truly a host who is truly human. Right. Is there any. Like, there’s no way of knowing a hundred percent in this show. And that can be frustrating. I wanna, you know, shout out. Yeah. All the people who are like, this is too confusing. This is frustrating too many time jumps, too many mysteries.

Like, yeah, I can relate to that. But then again, I think it’ll all be worth it

Melissa: once, but I think we get, I think the difference and, and I think you’re so right. And that whole frustration, I think the difference between season three and season four is in season [00:43:00] three, the frustration didn’t really lead to any sort of satisfaction in the end.

And it just kind of left everyone wanting more and it just felt lackluster. Whereas in season four, only four episodes in the confusion is exciting and we’re like, oh my God, this is Westworld. We’re watching Westworld again. And they’ve already, I dunno,

Renee: what, like revealed things, you know, they’ve already revealed so much just in these four episodes.

Melissa: Oh my God. Okay. So I have to get back to Christina again because. Because this is just, this is perplexing me, but I have to point out because I’ve gone back and forth. Is she a human? That is, you know, cuz we have the whole she’s a game designer. And then there was, you know, the guy that killed himself because he believed, you know, that, that he was in her game.

Right. And everything, she was the narrative she was creating was ruining his life. Right, right. Like he didn’t have free will essentially. And she was like, bird, bird’s dying

Renee: and there’s a

Melissa: tower. Yeah. And she’s like, what are you talking about? Like she’s totally confused. Right. Which is kind

Renee: like are, [00:44:00] what are they talking about?

Cause sometimes I’m confused.

Melissa: Well, but like here’s the thing is like her being confused about it is kind of like a host trait. Right. Mm-hmm like someone who’s like not really aware of her reality. And the other thing we have to, oh my God. Remember about Christina. I have to say this that’s super important.

Yeah. Go every day that Christina wakes up the same way, just like Dolores did mm-hmm mm-hmm and every day she has like the same sort of similar narrative with her creepy roommate who is always trying to get her laid. Yeah. And like always trying to get her to the bar to meet a guide. It’s the same. And, and I, at first I was like, okay, maybe that was just random.

Like when she had her meet that guy in the bar, then again in episode four, she’s like, oh, you need to come out. And they have that same conversation where Christina’s like, oh no, I don’t really want to, but she kind of pressures her into it. And then of course it’s Teddy this time and not some creepy like wall straight guy, but like, it’s the same type [00:45:00] of like repeat narrative that Dolores was stuck in, you know?

Yeah. And Christina is also stuck in that narrative, which leads me to believe that they, those that they are hosts in future world. and in the first, the first episode, when there’s a scene, it’s very, very subtle when Christina is walking through the street in New York, mm-hmm , there’s like a group of guys that run past her and they’re like, wow, this place is awesome.

Yeah. I’m so excited. Just like in west world. No,

Renee: yes. Ooh, good catch.

Melissa: Yeah. It’s very subtle. It’s very subtle. Yeah,

Renee: so anyway, I hundred percent believe that because when it’s like, there’s this whole thing in the first season where it’s like, when they showed a picture to Dolores of like some picture that her dad had that had triggered or something, you know, it was [00:46:00] like a,

Melissa: oh, it was the picture of the man in Black’s wife.

Oh, right. He had accidentally dropped it in Westworld. And then

Renee: Dolores said that doesn’t look like anything to me. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And the narrative around like this guy, you know, the birds are like, I don’t see these things. Yes. Right. Until the host wakes up. Right.

Melissa: And then they can see these things.

Right. It’s cause they programmed not to see it. They’re programmed not to see it.

Renee: And she didn’t, she couldn’t see the birds before. And then all of a sudden she saw

Melissa: or feel the fly on her face. Remember the fly. Oh, the fly I seen when she’s on the porch. Oh my God.

Renee: Yes. And it’s like, she would never heard a living thing.

And then she like kills a fly and it, and okay. The whole fly thing is super creepy. I

Melissa: can, well, the flies go back to season one. So season one mm-hmm the symbolism of the flies was, it was in a way I’m sure there were multiple. Meanings that one of the meanings I got from it was, it was sort of like a way to show us [00:47:00] how they weren’t human.

Right. Whereas like normally when a fly lands on you, you just immediate gut reaction is a swatted away. Right. A fly goes on your nose or your cheek. You just immediately you’re like, ah, and you swatted away. Right. Whereas there was that scene where she’s standing on the porch of her house in Westworld and the fly is just on her face, crawling around.

And she’s just like gazing off into the distance and is like, no clue. Because like you said, she’s not programmed to be human. She’s not programmed to SWAT it away. And then, so yeah, like you said, that moment where she finally kills the fly, you’re like, oh shit, she’s awake. Like, oh, she knows, you know, she knows, but that’s, it’s the same thing.

So what’s interesting to me is how they started. And I don’t know if they planned this from the start or if it’s just something they kinda went with,

Renee: it feels like it’s all one big, like they have this all planned to begin with.

Melissa: Yes. Because now the flies are now like this carrier of this, which I’m still don’t understand really the technical, like logistics of how this [00:48:00] parasite works.

Like I get what it is and I get that, like they infect the human and then as soon as it’s in the human now, like the ho the robots can control the humans. Right. Like what they did with all those like side characters and episode two. Yeah. That like killed themselves and, you know, did their bidding, like, I get that concept.

I still don’t understand though. And I, I don’t know if they’ll explain it or if it’s like a moot point, you know, or if it’s too scientific to get into. But I don’t understand like how it actually works. Like what are they injecting in the flies that are making the humans react this way? You know what I mean?

Right.

Renee: Well, and you know, That might be one of those side stories we don’t ever get a resolution for.

Melissa: Right. Exactly.

Renee: Exactly. Because there are bigger issues at play because right. Again, this whole fly narrative I’m like, is this, is this in the past? Is it in the present? Right. We have this whole, we don’t know when it’s happening.

So yeah, it could have all been. You know, and I mean, [00:49:00] not to echo this whole idea of plagues and you know, things that are happening. Right. But it’s a little, I think that’s what made it so creepy. I was just like, no, like no fair

Melissa: sights. I know please. No fricking monkey pops. Yeah. ,

Renee: you’re so

Melissa: mad. I know, but it’s true, right?

It it’s true. It’s true. I, it takes more significance for us in the world we live in today, for sure.

Renee: I think, especially because we have Caleb’s daughter. In that timeline being, which I love that, you know, like a young girl and then in the Bernard timeline being an older girl. Yeah. Right. So I think that, you know, like again, westward loves to play with time and yeah.

Loves to make you think something is happening when it’s not. And so we, I we’ll just have to see when everything is happening. Basically.

Melissa: I also wonder, and this could be [00:50:00] like, just something that they never do, but you know, the writer and me has to think of all these things. and especially when they showed, you know, a C who is actually Caleb’s daughter.

It all grown up and just basically like looking for him, you know? Yeah. Just like he’s dead, but it made me think of another storyline back to season one where, you know, before Arnold became Bernard, right. When he, he did it himself, he put his own consciousness into Bernard Arnold had a child. Yes. And I remember during season two, when Charlotte Hale came on, board, people were trying to speculate and say that Charlotte Hale might have been, I thought that I was daughter mm-hmm yeah, I did too.

I was like, kind of, I was like, I was down for that theory. I wasn’t a hundred percent convinced on it and, and I don’t think she is at all anymore at this point. But yeah, I am still wondering if they’re ever going to be like, what happened to Arnold’s kid, like yeah. You [00:51:00] know, is that person gonna have a role at all in the, maybe not this season, maybe the next season, you know?

Cause I know they’re gonna do one more and that’s it. But. I don’t know. I always think about that, cuz that’s like another, like he, he’s such an, an impactful character, you know, he’s a main character and the fact that he had a family as well and that they didn’t die to our knowledge, you know? Although Arnold, well, I don’t know how, what was the see now?

This is where I get confused with the timelines. When we go back to like, when Westworld was first created by Dells mm-hmm , that was like, what? Like. Has how, how much time has been passed since that. And, and I’m talking about current timeline, not like future world, but like, yeah.

Renee: That’s a presence, you know, I think my Whitelaw brain is gonna say I have

Melissa: no clue.

okay. I wanna say it’s like, I don’t think it’s like a hundred years. Like, I think it’s like, but it’s a [00:52:00] time five, maybe 40 years. Like I think that Arnold, if Arnold’s kid like didn’t, you know, dive anything, like he was just living his life. He or she, I think, I think it was a little boy. I can’t remember, but I would think he would be like in his forties now.

I don’t know. I’d just be curious to see if like, just to find out more about, you know, maybe Arnold’s backstory a little bit more, but I don’t think, I guess it’s probably not relevant at this point, cuz he is just Bernard now and he has a bigger role to play, but I don’t know. Well, I, I like those side stories

Renee: and because you’re a writer, right.

So you exactly are like, I wanna write all these little side journeys for these characters. So

Melissa: exactly that makes sense.

Renee: Exactly. I think maybe this would be a good way to like sort of end our little taught a little bit. Yes. Is what do we think? You know, if you were gonna write the ending of season four for Westworld, what would you, what are your predictions for the future?[00:53:00]

Or

Melissa: pass wow. That, you know, right. Or present, or, or never far feature or parallel or it’s all a dream or it’s all a dream. Yeah. I like that one actually like, you know who shot Jr? I don’t know. Yeah.

Renee: You did not throw a back to who shot Jr. It did. I

Melissa: love, yeah. Dolos just gets out of the shower and Teddy’s in bed and he is like, she’s like, I have the strangest dream

Renee: which is a theme, right.

The host having dream. Okay. Having

Melissa: dreams. I know, I know that dream

Renee: hosts are not supposed to have dreams. Okay.

Melissa: I know. I know. Anyway it’s crazy. Okay. So. I guess prediction is I think that good will prevail. I don’t think evil will win. So even though technically in this last scene, we’ve been shown the future that Charlotte hail did win, quote unquote.

However you have Bernard and Caleb’s daughter digging up Mave and the desert and calling her the weapon. And if anyone can bring her back online, it’s Bernard. So, I do believe they’re gonna rise up and [00:54:00] I think that hum a select group of humans like these rebels are gonna join with the hosts that are quote unquote the good hosts mm-hmm and they’re gonna, you know, take out Charlotte ha and take out whatever it is that’s controlling the humans, the flies, whatever the root of what the flies are, ingesting, you know, whatever it is then I think I think that’s definitely gonna happen.

I think that the good, I think Goodwill prevail in the end otherwise will just be really depressing, but That is my prediction beyond that, I don’t know. It’s hard to say. I still don’t understand why she’s still keeping the original William alive in like a cryogenic state. So he’s still going.

I think that he might have a change of character. He might actually have a redemption arc coming. That’s something I predict once he realizes he’s got a lot of time to think in his little frozen box. So, He might come out and see that the, the world is not exactly what he wanted it to be and realize that he had a pretty big hand in that.

So, I’m hoping for redemption arc for him to be honest, because [00:55:00] I always, I was like that, that type of, you know, villain becomes a hero again, kind of a thing. So, I’m hoping to see Logan again, just cause I’d like to see Ben Barnes back on a screen, like,

Renee: can we just bring back this character, please?

Melissa: Like even a host version of Logan, like, what is Charlotte hill doing? Like she’s got the most like beautiful host body. You can have, you can have anyone

Renee: why not bring back like

Melissa: right. Have . But yeah, anyways, that’s kind of, I’m still really confused about the whole Teddy Christina thing. Maybe they’ll write off into the sunset together and finally get that dream that she wanted.

Remember in season one, she just, he always had to leave and she always wanted him just to stay and watch sunset with her. So maybe we’ll get that finally, but yeah. Anyways, your turn you go. What do you think?

Renee: I, I don’t think good will prevail because I think the show always likes to ride the line of what is good.

Right. Okay. So I think we will get an unsatisfactory, [00:56:00] morally gray, slightly good ending.

Melissa: okay. you’re probably

Renee: right. I do. I do think I’m really optimistic that Bernard and Mave will come out on top, but I think whatever that looks like is gonna be different than what I think it is. Yeah. Right. Like I, I think there, we’re gonna all think that it’s supposed to be like taking out Charlotte.

Yeah. Hail, but then it turns out to be something completely different because there’s some other. Nature to the reality that we’re not aware of. Okay. And if I may yes. I’m gonna bring in another show that I’ve been watching, which is umbrella academy

Melissa: because, oh my God. I love that, that show. And I have, I, I love that show.

I just haven’t watched the new

season

Renee: yet. I’ve watched the new season. I’m not gonna spoil that one because that’s not what y’all are here for please. But what I will say is that in thinking about, you know, the umbrella academy and this idea, which [00:57:00] they’ve had, you know, multiple universe timelines things, right?

Yep. I think there could be a situation where. We’re not understanding the nature of reality right. In a, in a even bigger way. Yeah. And I don’t know if that’s because like it’s a matrix situation or there’s a world within a world or, you know, like, but I, I think there’s something bigger at play and I’m, I don’t know what it is, but I’m excited to see if it comes out.

So

Melissa: I think that’s a good point. I mean, literally struggl pale could be just under the control of someone else and it could just be another. It could be worlds within a world, like a west planet instead of a west world. You know what I mean? Exactly. That’s what I’m

Renee: saying. Like, I I’m gonna bring it like even bigger, right?

Like I’m like, is this even in this

Melissa: timeline universe, everyone’s study bleeds

Renee: right now. Yeah, exactly. exactly. So I’m, yeah. I’m [00:58:00] curious to see where they go with it, but I’m really excited because I do think this season of Westworld if, you know, if you watch season two and you weren’t sure, like I encourage you to stick with it, I feel like, yeah, this is the theme with a lot of shows right now, you know?

Right. Umbrella academy, stranger things,

Melissa: stranger things. I just finished it. Have you finished it? I haven’t

Renee: yet, but

Melissa: like we gotta talk about that too. There’s

Renee: like, there’s these like middle lulls with some of these shows where it’s like, well, I don’t know if that worked, but then they somehow seem to bring it back.

And I feel like Westworld has

Melissa: really done that. They really have, like, I saw it in the beginning to bring it back. Westworld has got its swagger back. Yes, exactly.

Renee: So, absolutely. If you’ve made it this far, thought

Melissa: you’re, you’re

Renee: the true west fan, the true Westworld fan. Thanks for joining our fandom.

If you were listening and you haven’t seen Westworld totally encourage you to check it out, cuz yes, it is just some really great [00:59:00] storytelling.

Melissa: Absolutely. And honestly like the show’s so confusing, we probably didn’t spoil anything. Like literally like people still watch to be like, what were they talking

Renee: about?

I understand. None of it’s real. Exactly. No, exactly. Yeah.

Melissa: Yeah. For, thanks for being here with me and we’ll have to We’ll do another one for the season finale. What do you think? I think

Renee: that’s a great idea. Yeah. Tune in next time for the Renee and Melissa Westworld taught edition. That’s

Melissa: right.

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