Filmmaker Joshua Zeman stops by to chat about his work!

Join us as Jeff talks to Joshua Zeman about his documentaries and more!

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Joshua Zeman – Video Interview

Jeff Haas: [00:00:00] Hello listeners to support our country today on the show we had the fantastic filmmaker, Mr. Joshua Z-Man how’s it going, sir? Good. How are you? I’m doing very well. I’m a big fan. I’m actually me and my wife are big fans of your two dogs documentary, especially Cropsey and the loneliest whale.

There you’re actually phenomenally done and they were, it actually felt, I would say extremely entertaining and I enjoyed the mystery of both. So how long did you want to be a filmmaker for.

Joshua Zeman: I’ve interesting for quite some time. I think I had wanted to become a filmmaker. I’d also wanted to be a journalist.

So I guess there’s a little bit of crossover there on the documentary side. I went to school for journalism and kind of getting out of school. I got into film production, and then I guess documentaries are, to me, kind of like journalism with, you know, on the, on the visual side of.

Jeff Haas: Yeah. I mean, did you always plan on focusing on doing documentaries or were you planning or that was something that kind of occurred as you’re finding yourself as a filmmaker?[00:01:00]

Joshua Zeman: Interesting. I actually started out as working on movie sets, you know, I was a PA and then worked my way up to become an assistant director. And I had always wanted to do narrative film. I moved into producing. I was a creative producer and I wanted to do like a narrative horror movie and. It was weird.

I, as I was like getting ready to do this narrative horror film about Cropsey I had like taken a walk in the woods and that was when I saw like the, the, the, the mental institution itself. And that’s when I found this cool Geraldo footage. And I said, you know what? Like, like a horror movie is creepy, but I wonder if I could make a documentary like real life and have that be far more creepier than just a horror movie.

And also at the time, like Blair witch came out and I was like, [00:02:00] oh, I I’ll show you something really creepy. Like you think that’s creepy? I could show you something really creepy. And that was kind of like the Geraldo footage. Yeah. I mean,

Jeff Haas: it, it was amazing watching Cropsey and primarily I think, because I couldn’t, it was hard to believe that it existed until you showed that it did, you know what I’m saying?

It was all those things where it does the idea of, it sounds like fiction. The setting sounds like fiction. It even looks like fish, especially when you discussed the underground a little bit. And it’s amazing that it was that real.

Joshua Zeman: Yeah. I mean, that was true. Well look, true. Truth is definitely stranger than fiction.

And you know, that’s part of the play right. Is, is what makes truth stranger than fiction is it’s true. You know what I’m saying? In some ways like and so I call it like reverse Blair witch, right? So [00:03:00] Blair witch tries. Take narrative footage and make it seem as real as possible, right? With kind of a, you know, bad lighting or however they want to try and make a real, I try and take real footage and make it seem as narrative as possible.

I E putting creepier music in kind of cutting it in a kind of horror way. So. It’s just kind of like taking the footage that you have, or it’s almost like constructing a fiction film out of real footage. You know what I’m saying? Like, like you take your real footage and you’re like, okay, this is just, you know, this is a theme.

Right. You know, and it’s the scene of the kids going in. The mental institution just happens to be real, but you’re kind of constructing it or you’re splicing it together. You know, kind of in a, in a fake way. Does that make sense? Oh, totally.

Jeff Haas: And I think when the [00:04:00] amazing thing is about people dream documentaries like yourself is that it is because you’re dealing with real life.

Is that it doesn’t have. A definitive and like the way a fiction story would be. In other words, you start off with the killer. It’s an end with the killer being caught or stop and whatever you’re subject to real world in the moment, life. Where, at what point did you find your narrative flow and know this is the film that is becoming, or that you already know going in, that this is the Promogran makes, or does it kind of become the film as you’re

Joshua Zeman: filming?

I think you have to go in with a plan, but like the one thing you learn as a film, And as a storyteller is like the, if you think it’s going to end up like that, you’re wrong, don’t try and don’t eat like go in with a plan, knowing that it will change, you know, because the, because if you it’s like a wild animal, you know, like a, like a, like a, like a, like a [00:05:00] horse that’s bucking, you know what I’m saying?

Like, you can’t break it. You just gotta kinda like work with it. And if. If you, if you don’t let it go where it wants to go, you’re not going to have a good film. You know what I’m saying? See, you got to trust the story and you got to let it go where it wants to. So I, for example, when. Saying, okay.

There’s a trial, right. And I’m going to follow this trial and a trial has a beginning, a middle and an end. And I’ll use that as my narrative backbone, the construct, but I’m not going to know where it goes in and out of it, like also like, you know, I couldn’t in, in New York, you can’t fill it with. So it’s everything that happens outside of the trial.

So, but, but using that as like, you know, the beginning, middle, middle, and an end that allowed me to keep a story, a general structure, but then like go anywhere I wanted to,

Jeff Haas: is it [00:06:00] hard as the artist to give up that level of control to where the real

Joshua Zeman: world completely? I mean, that’s right. I mean, you know, like, I had done another series called the killing season about long island the sex workers who are all killed in long island.

And we went in there, eight part series. I had no idea how it was going to end and it just so happened. Like the police chief got arrested and that allowed us not for that crime, but in general. And that allowed it, it gave us an ending. But that is why documentaries are kind of like. In my eyes a lot more like rock and roll than filming a script.

You know, they all present their different challenges, but like, I mean, I think you’re a ballsy filmmaker when you don’t know how your film is going to end, but you jump in any way.

Jeff Haas: I mean, [00:07:00] The cell that must be even harder as well, because once again, you don’t know exactly what your story is going to be and be like, Hey, I have this great idea.

I’m going to film this thing and we’ll see what happens. And maybe it will be like, this story. People will be like this, but it’s definitely something’s going to happen from now to that.

Joshua Zeman: Well, yeah, I mean, and that’s the whole thing, right. You know, when we went to go sell. The whale movie, they were like, well, Kara, can you guarantee us that you’re going to find a way out?

I was like, no way, like, like, no, you can’t guarantee that you’re gonna find a whale. And, and like, a lot of people were like, well, then we don’t want to do it. You know, it’s like, no guts, no glory, you know, you got to take the risks, you know, but at the same time, like smart filmmakers always have an out, you know, So it is really tough, but I think that’s what makes filmmaking a kind of such, that’s what makes documentary filmmaking so [00:08:00] interesting.

And, and, you know, people will say like, you know, there’s like documentary filmmakers out there. They’re like, oh, I, I I’ve done both like docs and narratives. And sometimes. Are harder just because, you know, you have to let, go with a story, takes you, the non-professional actors never know what you’re going to get, you know, and, and that’s cool.

Jeff Haas: And I think with Cropsey, I mean, The at the center of the cross crops Cropsey story is Andre Rand, who is a fascinating, I like a better word character based on just who he is. Wait, when you figure it out who the center was, Andre ran. How did that affect. Your through line through your movie and where you a documentary.

And what did you think about the individual himself? Was there a line where you kind of wanted to know who he is, but also kind of have to be a bit distant as well as the filmmaker analyzing him?

Joshua Zeman: What was [00:09:00] interesting in that case? There’s like a couple of issues, like first question is, did he do it or didn’t he do it?

Right. And I remember I did that film with my partner at the time Barbara Brancaccio. And what was very interesting is like we went in with two different ideas about whether he did it or not. We shifted during the, and during the make-up. So like we were always, but we, oh, we never agreed. And I think that allowed us to like, keep down the middle, you know what I’m saying?

And allowed to vary, it allowed to be as, you know, kind of to allow both ideas coming into play. So that was one thing. And the other thing was, at some point you also realize, like, does it matter if he’s guilty or not? Because it’s about the. Yeah. It’s not about what the evidence says. It’s what it’s about, what you believe.

And I think that’s what that was. What was interesting. Like we went in thinking we were going to do some kind of very [00:10:00] straightforward, like courtroom drama, if you will. But then when the film we realized. We allowed ourselves, I guess, to tell our urban legend story or boogeyman story, whether he was guilty or not, didn’t even matter.

It was like, it was more about. Is this your bogeyman and how do we create boogeyman and all those things? So it was so interesting to me because when we were originally pitching that project, you know, they’re like, well, what’s your ending. I was like, well, you know, is it guilty or not? You know? And then by the end of it, I totally didn’t matter.

Because people weren’t going off the pres the evidence they were going off of what they believe, what the rumors were. So have you been familiar

Jeff Haas: with the urban legend prior to the holes? That’s the story and it was something that you grew

Joshua Zeman: up on? Yeah, I mean, it was art. This is interesting. It was our lead urban legend growing up.

Right. But what I didn’t know is [00:11:00] like how those urban legends could be woven into this true crime story. Like, oh, this is just some legend we had growing up as a kid. Right. Okay. But, but what you don’t know is like pulling apart a legend and like every exploration of that legend, no matter how in depth it doesn’t take away from their legend actually just adds to it.

Like, or like a legend is you can have whole bunch of people tell them. Versions of that. And that only increases the legend. So it was only when we got into like the, kind of in the weeds of, of urban legends. Did we realize that we can weave those threads throughout the whole story? What is

Jeff Haas: it about this legend that you think has maintained for so long?

I mean, it is, I mean, it is, there’s definitely a primal aspect to it. Why do you think it has endured.[00:12:00]

Joshua Zeman: Excuse me. No problem. Why has this legend in door? I mean, that’s very interesting. I didn’t even know that the Cropsey legend didn’t come from me. I know that it was a name of a, of a maniac from upstate New York that had been used in sleep-away camp since the 1950s. I hadn’t known that. And what I found out.

That legend was co-opted by our us in Staten island. And it must’ve been co-opted because around the time that this urban legend was happening, the movie the burning had come out which was popular at the time, which had the Cropsey character in it. I didn’t know any of that. So you’ve got one aspect, which is, there’s always that maniac in the woods, terrorizing kids, you know, and that’s been around for, at this point 60, 70 years.[00:13:00]

So that’s always pervasive, you know, and I’m sure that’s been going around since, you know, kids have been hanging out in the woods in groups, you know, and then there’s the urban legends about the mentally ill. And that has been going on. Since there’s been mentally ill, you know, it’s, it’s one of these mentally ill, disabled, you know, it’s a part of humanity and it’s a part of human beings that we don’t understand, you know, these people, quote unquote, and, and, and this is only from the perspective, the urban legend, not from how I obviously feel about developmentally disabled people or anything like that, but like to kids.

There’s something about the mentally ill. They look the same, right? There’s no physical problem. It’s not like they’re missing a limb, but yet something is quite wrong. And so it’s a perplexing thing, you know? They’ve always said that one of your, one of [00:14:00] our biggest innate fears is that we’re going to become.

Mentally ill, right? Because technically, like there’s nothing you could do to prevent it, right? Like one of those, like, oh my God, am I crazy? Am I becoming crazy? That’s a huge fear. So that’s very pervasive. Like we’ve always been trying, we can get inside people’s brains and really try and figure out what’s happening.

And if we ask them that they can’t really tell us. So the mentally ill presents this very fascinating. Human kind of hustle a mystery that we still can’t solve.

Jeff Haas: And I do wonder if there’s something to be said of for children, fear of adults who. R maybe unpredictable as mentally. It would be that these are adults.

You can’t completely trust what the behavior is going to be. I wonder if that’s also a scary aspect for a child,

Joshua Zeman: right? You can’t reason why you can’t, [00:15:00] there’s a logic to them. They act differently. Like that’s one of, that’s one of the ideas about zombies, you know, like. You know, zombies or like terrorists, it’s kind of the same thing.

It’s like you, can’t reason with them. You can’t turn back and say, wait, wait, wait, wait, don’t hurt me. I didn’t do anything. Or I have more don’t hurt me. I have children like that doesn’t work. Right.

Jeff Haas: And, and, and I think the most interesting about the urban legend as well, that it predates social media. So it’s a much pure form of the story to, for.

I mean, cause I mean, this is literally something that only is being exchanged through word of mouth. You know, kids terrorizing other kids with a story and in a time where it really did have to be a you know, a verbal tail instead of social media. You know, texting each other.

Joshua Zeman: Right, right, right. I think like, it’s very interesting.

Like we definitely have a Mustang algia for it, you know, sitting around the campfire and telling each other [00:16:00] tales, you know, there’s a certain theater to it, you know, because you’re in the. Right because you’re sitting around with your peers because you’re not at school because there’s a fire in front of you, you know, like you’ve got all the settings.

If you will to create a scenario in which people could be lulled into into a ghost story, you know, those are all prompt. In that piece of theater, the fact that it’s dark and everything now what’s interesting is also, you know, predate social media. So technically like you couldn’t turn around and be like, oh wait, let me see if that’s really true, but you couldn’t Google it.

Right. You couldn’t Google it. But here’s something really interesting. What we found out is that the internet. It’s its own digital campfire, you know? So instead of sitting around a fire, you’re sitting around a computer screen, [00:17:00] it still throws off light, you know, it’s stills illuminating your faces. You know, you’re still doing it sometimes in the middle of the night, you know?

So in a lot of ways that regular campfire has now turned into the digital campfire and it, it kind of functions in the same. Like I could be like, bullshit. That story is not real. I’ve looked it up on Google, but then I could be like, oh, come on or Wikipedia. I’d be like, oh, really? You believe Wikipedia?

Jeff Haas: Yeah. I mean, I do think that social media and I guess the stories would be as well that you are still going to believe what you want to believe going in. And I guess in an urban legend. Like almost any ghost store you do kind of sort, I mean, you don’t want to really bleed cause it’s a horror story, but at the same time, you kind of want to think about it and want it to be sort of real and in a weird way, I think,

Joshua Zeman: well, let me ask you a different Slenderman right now.

Instead of, instead of saying, I, this happened to a friend of mine, [00:18:00] what you say is, look, let me show you this picture. You know, now if you’re back in the day, like you don’t, you’re not carrying the picture with. You know, back in the day, sitting around at camp, you weren’t carrying that picture with you.

You were just saying, look, I know it, you know, it’s a friend of a, friend’s have know a friend of mine. Now we just have a different like level of proof now it’s oh yeah. Let me text you this picture. What the hell do you think this is so same urban legends. Just different methods of communicating different situations, different campfires, but in some ways it’s worse.

If you. You know, the there’s a lot more conspiracies. There’s a lot more legends out there when you would think there would be far less. That’s a good

Jeff Haas: point. Wait, when, when you’re filming your movie, did you kind of view it almost like a, another visual campfire that you were [00:19:00] telling a tale that you did you kind of, was digitalized.

This tail, your tail telling to your audience?

Joshua Zeman: Yeah. I mean, they’re very much so, like, I think that’s why you kind of see like the walking through the institution at night, you know, the, the push, the slow push-ins on the doorways with the music and the creepiness, you know, that’s, that’s very much like kind of horror movie setting, urban legend setting.

And

Jeff Haas: w even though you’re the one filming it, and obviously you’re Osseo, a full grown adult. Did you find yourself getting caught up in the horror of a little bit? Like, like they, we’re a part of you and was convinced when you’re going under those tunnels that something could really be, even though, you know, as, as a filmmaker, you kind of know there’s probably isn’t.

Did you kind of feel that there could have been something.

Joshua Zeman: Well, of course, why? Because it’s a documentary.

[00:20:00] So yeah, I mean, I mean, like, you know, how could you, how could you not get freaked out by it in a lot of ways? It’s scary down there. People haven’t been down there for a long time and there were a lot of theoretically homeless people there and stuff like that. So it was completely free. And you know, you even, you know, you tell yourself enough ghost stories, you’re going to freak yourself out.

You know? So that was, that was very easy to do. You know, we’re all grown adults freaking out in there, you know?

Jeff Haas: I mean, I, wasn’t part of the fun to be with history yourselves a little bit like where you guys. Challenging each other too, and trying to put the fear into each other as well as you’re doing this.

That’s good. At least it looked a lot of fun when you guys were filming it, like you guys were enjoying the, the theater of it

Joshua Zeman: all. Yeah, I think we were, we were. You know, it’s very interesting because people have different beliefs about different things. Right. You know, so my part of Barb, she was freaked out about like, [00:21:00] let’s say kind of devil worshipers in the woods.

And I was freaked out about like an escape mental patient or like a homeless person, you know? So like, it was also like, you know, it was very interesting to be like, no, no Barb, like I’m not, that’s not what scares me. This is what scares me or the police, you know, like.

Jeff Haas: So when, when you were filming in, you’re also interviewing real people was there any concern about how they would, they will react to the

Joshua Zeman: film?

Yes. Yes. Very much so. All the joking aside and all the kind of power trips aside you know, you’re definitely, you’re dealing with real people, right. And real situations, and we didn’t want to make life. And there was a concern by some of the family members that we would, but I think, I think if you watch the film, we don’t do it in a joking kind of Blair witch manner.

I think you’ll, you know, if you watch the film, you realize, well, you know, when you, when you grow up, you can have these [00:22:00] stories, but then still treat the reality in a reverence. Right? So, We grew up with these stories as kids. Yes. They freak you out. But then going in and saying, let me look at the reality of this situation and saying this far more terrifying than I ever figured out.

Like I think in that way, you can both give your connection to it. And at the same time still be respectful of everybody. The situation at hand, you know what I’m saying? Yeah.

Jeff Haas: How did you approach them so that they knew they could trust you, that you weren’t taking advantage of the story or going to manipulate in a way that that they maybe wouldn’t have, or their version, their part of it that they wouldn’t like, was there kind of like a, a standard approach that you did to make sure they knew that you were going to be serious and how you’re handling it?

Joshua Zeman: Good question. [00:23:00] There was no standard approach. Number one, we were from Staten island where this had happened. So this is our hometown. Number two

I was going to say like, I wouldn’t get it. To try and do it any other way. That doesn’t really, that doesn’t mean anything, but I think being as authentic as possible also helps, you know what I’m saying? People can sense when you’re going to do something like that. Time, you know, we had sat in these pretrial motions for four years. Oh, wow. Four years long for pretrial motions. What ma you can say as much as you want, but I think if you’re a filmmaker, what people really respect more than anything is dedication and tenacity outside of town. Like before they know that you have talent, they require that they require.

Dedication and tenacity. And so like we were in [00:24:00] that, we went to all these pre-trial motions, like every two months, and we would sit there and we’d talk and be respectful and like, listen to the process. And this is before we actually started shooting. So by the time we started shooting, rolling around, you know, people had seen us for four years.

So they were like, wow, okay. You’re obviously like committed to telling the story, you

Jeff Haas: know, Did they react to the finished product?

Joshua Zeman: There were some people who were freaked out hearing the tone, but not having seen the finished product, the product. There was one of a family member, one of the brothers, he was very upset that he thought we had kind of done it in a In a way that, you know, wasn’t going to be respectful because he heard about like the boogeyman and the urban legends and right.

Like, and it was hard, right? This happens a lot in filmmaking. Like people, if they get angry, [00:25:00] You know, they’re like, this is wrong. And I’m like, well, do you know, are you getting it? Did you see it? And he’s like, no, I’m not even going to watch it. Well then, well then how do you improve? You know, how do you prove your point where I had, you know, so you know it, Hey, you’re not going to make everybody happy, but be like, you just have to keep hounding away and know that you did the right thing.

You know, like at the end of the day, I knew we had done. The kids and the story justice. So I wasn’t worried so much when they were like, I’m not going to watch it. And this is, this is bullshit because I knew eventually they would watch it. And eventually when they became, when they got over the grief and the anger and all, although when they did, they would realize that we printed it, respect.

Jeff Haas: And like I said, it was a phenomenal film and I really enjoyed it. And I think you did do justice to the story of the victims. I mean, Andre ran to an extended obviously of, you know, [00:26:00] for his story as well. I mean th and I mean, the film has a lot of accolades and 91% rating on rotten tomatoes. This was also the first film that you’ve wrote directed and produced at the same time.

Yup. Did that give you, how did that give you the confidence to keep moving so that your next films?

Joshua Zeman: Well I think, you know, that the response was good enough that we just decided to keep, keep moving forward, you know, like let’s keep going, just keep going. And the response was good enough. So I think that gave us the idea, plus it was like kind of new and interesting people hadn’t really seen that before.

So I think that that was kind of interesting. Like we knew we were on the precipice of exploring something interesting in terms of filmmaking. So I think that allowed us to kind of keep going as well. So,

Jeff Haas: You also working on a has a film on Netflix called son of Sam.

Joshua Zeman: Yeah, there’s a documentary series called the sons of Sam.

And it is actually weirdly enough kind of almost like Cropsey too. In some ways [00:27:00] I had met a guy while making crops. And actually in Cropsey they discuss some devil worshiping stuff. And actually this docu-series is an extension of that. Basically it reports that David Berkowitz, the son of Sam didn’t act alone, that he was part of a cult which was weirdly enough.

True. But it’s also about a little bit of obsessive journalism and going down rabbit holes much like Cropsey because,

Jeff Haas: you know, It’s definitely the killer. Like under Iran, there, there might’ve been some ambiguity in him. You definitely know Berkowitz is the killer and famously the killer is your approach to that story going into it different

Joshua Zeman: a little, but it’s a lot, it’s the same thing.

Like as a filmmaker, especially when doing certain cases. Like I, like, I like to say, like, here’s the established story. Here’s what we all think we know. And here’s the. So you kind of, you know, in this one, yes. A lot of people, you know, believe that [00:28:00] Berkowitz is the killer. What they don’t know is that he’s, he’s not the only one.

There were other accomplices now

Jeff Haas: is the, when, when you’re looking at the focus to that, Is it singularly David Berkowitz or was Maury Terry more of the

Joshua Zeman: Maury Terry was the focus. You know, I, I don’t really like doing serial killer stories. I like doing stories about people investigating those in crop seat was almost like our story investigating that.

And this one is very much like Maury Terry investigating that. So

Jeff Haas: also when you’re thinking also about the David Berkowitz, I mean, obviously he’s a serial killer and everything else, but he kind of has moved into almost Legendary’s status, like in a kind of weird culture where. Is there, was there a concern about introducing this other element, which it wasn’t necessarily doing it himself?

That was a con [00:29:00] know concern of how people would react to, I guess, the change in the initial legend?

Joshua Zeman: Well, that’s, that’s the whole thing. I think it, we knew we would be up against. And the press in terms of changing the story, but that’s also what kind of made it interesting in Poland. Okay.

Jeff Haas: All right. I also want to talk about quickly about another film of yours that I really loved. Maybe you got time for a few more questions. Yep. All right. Do you have another film called the loneliest whale of the search of 52? How did you first hear about that story? And can I give your listeners a pitch for what it’s

Joshua Zeman: about?

Sure. Basically I first heard about it in I was speaking to a writer, a guy who writes about animals and our relationship to animals. And he had told me this story about this. Well, basically that’s called it’s a whale basically that they first heard in. The Navy first heard it. Basically we have [00:30:00] microphones secret microphones that are all on the oceans, listening for submarines.

And that was established during the cold war. When you know, the Berlin wall fell, they basically handed over these listening devices to scientists and they used them to measure well populations and they heard this one really weird sound. It kind of was like a whale, but it didn’t sound like any other whale that they had ever recorded before.

And this one scientist says, I think this mysterious sound is, is a whale. It was at a 52 Hertz frequency and no other well makes a sound a 52 Hertz frequency. And he said, I think it’s either the first of his time, the last of his kind, or maybe a hybrid. And he surmised that this whale has been swimming throughout the Pacific ocean, calling out never receiving a response.

And basically kind of called it the loneliest whale in the world. And so they heard this [00:31:00] theoretical whale, but they had never seen it. So it became very much this kind of urban legend, if you will. And I had heard this story and I said, you know, much like, you know, some of the other. Examinations of mysteries.

Let’s go out and see if we can find the school. And we did a film. One thing

Jeff Haas: I love about the film is that you go a lot into the history of whaling as well. And, and also how humans are involved in the endangering of the whale population was the goal first to tell the story of 52 or was 52, a vector in which to educate people on the endangerment of whales.

Joshua Zeman: Interestingly enough, I always taught to tell the story of 52 and I had never realized that we, we only wanted to save whales after we heard them sing. I mean, this is a story about a very unique whale that sings at a very unique frequency. And [00:32:00] so when I was delving into. Well song. I realized that there was this whole history of whale song and that, that had changed the face of whaling and started the saving the whales movement.

So it became really interesting in that way. So in

Jeff Haas: doing the film the way it is the way it kind of ends, do you feel like 52 was found or not?

Joshua Zeman: Ah, I think people need to see the film took to figure out are eastbound

Jeff Haas: or not. All right. That’s a very good answer. Where can they find 52?

Joshua Zeman: The loneliest, well right now is on VOD.

You can find it on Amazon. You can find on iTunes and it will be on Hulu

Jeff Haas: in October, just for a quick summary. Cropsey I saw available on Amazon prime of Sam is on Netflix and 52. VOD eventually Hulu. Yep. You got it. All right. I greatly appreciate it. I really enjoyed your films and I want to thank you a lot for talking with me.

It was a great pleasure of mine.

Joshua Zeman: My pleasure. Thank you so much. Take care. No worries.[00:33:00] [00:34:00] [00:35:00] [00:36:00] [00:37:00] [00:38:00] [00:39:00] [00:40:00] [00:41:00] [00:42:00] [00:43:00] [00:44:00] [00:45:00] [00:46:00] [00:47:00] [00:48:00] [00:49:00] [00:50:00] [00:51:00] [00:52:00] [00:53:00] [00:54:00] [00:55:00]

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