Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff Talk Bubble from First Second Books!

Jordan Morris from Jordan Jesse Go! And artist Tony Cliff (Delilah Kirk) come by to chat about their new graphic novel Bubble, adapted from the hit podcast from Maximum Fun (
Be sure and pre-order it now:
Jordan talks about his work in podcasting, his undying love for FarScape, and the differences between writing for tv comedy and writing for comics. Tony talks about his eagerness to start back at yoga in a post-pandemic world , learning the importance of a schedule, and his amazing graphic novel series Delilah Dirk ( They also talk about getting a vasectomy for some reason…

Casey did the interview. He goes on tangents.

Jordan Morris:

Tony Cliff:

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Interview scheduled by Jeffery Haas

Theme music by Ardus

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff Video Interview


[00:00:00] Casey: All right, everybody. Welcome again, to another episode of spoiler country to date on the show, we have a treat for you guys because we have two amazing creators on the show. Jordan Morris and Tony cliff.

And they’re here to talk to you about the bubble. Jordan Morris, Tony cliff. How’s it going guys? Very well.

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Thank you. Yeah, it’s going good. Uh I’ll I’ll listen, who doesn’t love to start an interview with a correction, but it’s actually bubble. There’s not,

Casey: no,

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: there’s a there’s a Judd appetite movie coming out called the bubble, which is going to be about the pandemic.

So we’re all excited for that. Just don’t want people to be expecting an adaptation of the jet appetite movie. Well, I think the, both the both come out, the bubble and bubble will both come out and you know, we’ll see which one wins out, which one will eventually become the bubble. Right. When people look back on 2021, [00:01:00] you’ll say you mentioned bubble and we’ll wonder which, which bubble are you talking about?

I’m talking about the bubble,

Casey: the summer bubbles. Which one’s going to pop first guys.

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: So Jordan, I’m sure our graphic novel will be more popular than the star studded movie. Oh man.

Casey: Come on. So just as an aside, I, I was a massive, massive fan of the podcast. Oh. It was, it was wonderful. It was so fun. And Like, like up until like a few months ago, I was like, when was this going to come back home?

Because, Oh my gosh, it was so fun. And now I know why, because you guys have been adapting it. So first things first, Jordan, I knew you from way back when, so I used to have a job working for a moving company and I would literally, I would get people’s crap loaded into a big truck, drive it all the way across the country.

And during those long haul drives. Jordan Jesse go was my [00:02:00] companion across America. And it was you, you guys really kind of got me into podcasts.

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Yeah, thanks. That’s nice into the stereo. And as one does with the tape adapter adapter to the tape deck. Thanks. It’s nice to be, to say, yeah, I think our, our chat podcast, Jordan, Jesse go plays well when you’re, you know, just trekking across America with somebody else’s.

Couch and pee in a bottle. That’s that’s when the show I did. I

Casey: did. Yeah. I’m not going to lie. There were quite a few trucker bombs on the on the way from, you know, here and there. So my, my what, what I’m saying, I peed a lot of places,

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: right? Yes. Yeah. Trucker bomb. Is that, is that colloquial? Do they, is that term

Casey: that’s the term?

And Yeah, man, you, you got a time to, to stick to, and sometimes you can’t stop anywhere. So. [00:03:00] It gets real awkward when you, you know, w when you’re in a truck with another person, you’re just like, Hey, man look the other way for a minute, because stuff’s about to happen. We’re going to be a real cool

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: with it.

Yeah. The wheel, all I fill this Arizona ice tea camp.

Casey: So Tony, you know, a lot about trunk or bombs. So

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: I do well, I do know a lot about I mean, you’re driving across the country. Drawing comics is one of those, one of those jobs where it’s just like, You got all the time, all the time in the world to just sort of sit there pee in bottles and listened to podcasts.

So yeah. Yeah. So I, I am, I’m coming from a similar place as you like Jordan, Jesse go was, I think probably one of the first podcasts I listened to But at an and, and yeah, I mean, like I got nothing but time to think. But time though is of the podcast. It’s a perk of the job as with, with movers.

Casey: You, you have to watch your back.

Is it when you’re sitting all day,

[00:04:00] Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: great job for destroying your spine. Did you have the, you have a spine that you wanted to bend into a curve? Yes. Here you go. Draw a comic book. Do

Casey: you do anything to counteract

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: that? I mean, straight answer. Yes. I mean, I try to, or I was doing yoga until until pandemic.

We are talking to you now in the middle of April, 2021. So, you know, for future aliens who discovered this, this podcast, right? It with the podcast it’s pandemic times. And I have been so I haven’t been doing yoga since then. And I’ve been totally turning into a Walnut

Casey: to a tiny shape. I have two daughters and occasionally I’ll, I’ll get out the yoga mat with them and do do some yoga.

And I realized like, I should probably do this a lot more because the, the few minutes that I’m doing it with them, it is torture. And I should be better. I should, I should feel better about myself at the age that I’m at. So, so it’s hard not to

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: feel that way. [00:05:00] I admitted to myself recently that I don’t like yoga and I think I will never like it and I have to be okay with that.

You know, there’s other things I can do for myself. And I do know that like, Oh yeah, after I do yoga, I do feel good. Like it’s a good feeling post yoga, but I just never enjoy the process. So yeah, it’s hard. And, you know, especially in LA there’s a lot of pressure to be doing yoga all the time and to be talking about doing yoga.

All the time. So yeah, teacher it’s just so, so funny too. So fun. Everybody says her yoga teacher is funny. It’s like, no, what’s the last funny thing your yoga teacher said. You’re just in a weird cult. My spin teacher, my spin teacher is hilarious. They’re not. Yes, like anyway, I’m at the

Casey: gym. It’s it’s I hate it so much that I’ll want to get through it.

And that’s what powers

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: user through the exercise. Yeah, I [00:06:00] think that’s valid. I think I I’ve been able to find some exercises where I kind of enjoy the, the journey as well as the. Endorphin the feeling afterwards. So I think I’m going to try and stick with those. But yeah, you’ve been swimming, right?

Yeah. I’ve been swimming and running, so, so jealous of your swimming. Oh, I’m so jealous of that. I cannot, I cannot do swimming for the life of me and it would, I would love to. What’s the, what’s the, what’s the thing that, that won’t, that won’t gel for you? Like, is there a, is it, I don’t know. I don’t know how to float.

How do you float? How do you stay on top? How do you keep from just sinking to the bottom of the pool? Well, you say a prayer to Jesus Christ, our Lord and savior. He keeps us above water at all times. Let us pray, bow our heads. You know, I think he just, you know, your body naturally doesn’t want to. Sync it wants to live.

So you just let the body do what it naturally wants to do. So if my body, if it feels like my body is trying to drag me [00:07:00] to the bottom of the pool, is that a message I should be listening to maybe just stay away from that? Cause that’s something I should talk to my yoga instructor about that is yes, you’re hilarious.

Yoga instructor, legendary comedian, George Wallace. It,

Casey: it just kind of floats on his back all the time and just like so surreal seals. I want to, I want to.

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: That’d be that kind of shit or, or the ones that crack you’re thinking of otters. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Tony made the unit, we’re doing this over zoom. Tony made the universal symbol for cracking an oyster.

Casey: So

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Jordan,

Casey: you started a podcast called yes. The bubble. And Nope, just call it bubble. No, called my bad that’s

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: okay. Oh my God. I feel like a Dick for correctly. I don’t want, I’m not doing it out of dickish. I’m a

Casey: jackass for saying it twice. So yeah, you started bubble and it [00:08:00] is fantastic. What was the impetus for you to then go?

I want to adapt this into a comic?

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Yeah, so, I mean, I have been a like comics reader. Since I could read, I love them. And think that they are magic and think that everyone who does them is a wizard. And yeah, I’ve always kind of wanted to. To do them. And I took a couple of stabs at coming up with pitches, you know, tennis years ago.

And, you know, didn’t really find anybody who, who liked those pitches, but but yeah, I was doing other kinds of writing and yeah. And then I kind of had the idea for, for bubble. Just kind of a general idea for a story in a world, this kind of idea that, you know, in the near future everybody lives under these bubbles and.

Each bubble is themed to the kind of lifestyle you want to. So there’s a hipster bubble and a suburban bubble and a country bubble. And the idea that, [00:09:00] you know, these kind of themed bubbles, you know, are patrolled by this kind of hapless. Gig economy of people who have to fight monsters in order to survive.

So the, this kind of story, and these characters kind of came to me and, you know, I was thinking about, Oh, how do I do this? You know, is this a TV show? Is this so what have you, but yeah, I Yeah, I decided, you know, because I do the chat podcast that we mentioned, Jordan, Jesse go, I kind of know people with microphones and equipment and people who are good with their voices.

So, yeah, the kind of the idea to tell the story via via podcast occurred to me. So yeah, we. At max fund got together a bunch of cool writers. Sarah Morgan we should mention who worked on the script for the graphic novel with us. She worked on the podcast and Janine Brito and Nick Adams, who recently won a WGA award for BoJack horseman.

Oh, nice. So congrats to bubble alumna, Nick Adams. Anyway so yeah, a bunch of cool people and you know, got, got some of [00:10:00] our kind of fave comedy people to do to do voices. You got Alison Becker from parks and rec in there. You got Keith Powell from 30 rock. Mike Mitchell of the doughboys podcast asked Eliza Skinner the world’s greatest standup comedian.

So yeah, we have a lot of You know, we kind of like had those cool people involved and we made the podcast. And then the folks at first second who Tony worked with on the Delilah Dirk series reached out and asked if I had ever thought about making it into a comic book and I Screamed in excitement for an hour and a half.

And then calmly said, yes, that sounds nice. So yeah, that’s kinda how it happened. I think first second had a lot of success with the adventure zone comics from the McElroy family and Carrie peach and yeah, just kind of, I think they were into the idea of that. Comics and podcasts could become one another.

So, and yeah, they were, they were great Calista Brill over there really. Really this is her kind of lane and this is her zone and she’s been, [00:11:00] been great in kind of helping this to become an actual thing. So yeah, that’s, that’s kind of the little story of it.

Casey: So here’s where we would insert the record.

Scratch sound. If we had somebody that did that. How did you guys meet up initially? You and Tony cliff, because you, you said that it is Tony’s publisher that, that does the The book was him. Oh,

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: well, like you probably, I don’t know when it was, but like I remember really, really early on Jordan. I think he tweeted something like Hey, anybody got any book recommendations?

I was like, Hey, hi Could I humbly direct you towards this this series of comics that I write and illustrate and you’re like, Oh, I’ve read though. I was like, all right, well then I have nothing for you. No, I told Tony to go fuck himself. Read those idiot. Stupid. Yeah, I was a fan of the Delilah Dirk series and yeah, I think Tony and I pre pre [00:12:00] bubble pre any of this, we’re just kind of like, you know, Twitter, Twitter banter, friends.

I was a fan of his comics and he listened to the podcast. So, you know, kind of that, that created a you know, a Twitter banter bond. And yeah. Calista Brill, who you mentioned is was also, has also been my editor for, you know, since 2013 on the Delilah letter books. So it was odd. It’s like a, it’s a small world scenario.

It’s a, it’s a good, happy, you know, what do you call it? When things just come together, it’s a happy thing that comes together. Yeah. We love it. When a plan comes, it’s called plan comes together. It’s called an, an a team. No, I wouldn’t Calista, you know, started asking like who, who should draw the book?

You know, I don’t really know how these things are done. So I, I, I said, can we get someone who draws like Tony cliff, like in, in, you know, with the thinking that perhaps Tony would never do such a thing as this, but I thought maybe we could [00:13:00] get, you know, a fan of his, that was 22 and right out of art school.

And then two days later Calista called me and she’s like, well, Tony cliff will do it. So, that’s awesome. Yeah. So, yeah, because at that point I, like, I had heard the podcast, I’d heard the podcast by then. I said, shoot, I’m trying to remember the order in which things happen. But yeah, I I’d heard the podcast, but then Casey, you mentioned you listened to bubble when you listened to bubble.

Was that the first time you’d heard a podcast of that type? No, I kind

Casey: of seek out now. Now I work in a lab all day. And so it’s, I’m looking in a microscope all day and working with lasers and I need something to kind of like go on in the background. And a lot of the time I like to listen to a story podcasts and I saw who was on the podcast.

I saw who created the podcast and I said, Oh, Holy crap. I’m in. And that’s, that’s kind of [00:14:00] where, where that came from. That that was my deciding factor in going, Oh yeah, this is for me. I love scifi was

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: that sort of, I feel like there was a a, sort of a feeling in the air when that came out, that there weren’t a lot of narrative sort of fiction story podcasts.

Not produced for sure. Right.

Casey: Cause that was what, 2018 when you came out with that 2018. Yeah. That’s yeah. Yeah. So, so there was like like a lot of horror podcasts, but not a ton and. I’m sure I’m like somebody is going to get pissed off, but not a ton of the quality and of the content that bubble has.

So. Yeah. Yeah. They, they stood

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: out for sure. Oh, thanks. It’s nice to get to say I’ll, I’ll definitely shout out some other great narrative podcasts that came before us. You got the thrilling adventure hour. You got welcome to night Vale. The bright sessions is another great kind of [00:15:00] genre, mashup you know, narrative podcast.

So yeah. You know, there were definitely been people who were doing it before. Bubble and doing it very well, but but yeah, I like to, I like to think that bubble had a lot of jokes and the clear in a, in a kind of a weird world that, you know, maybe you hadn’t seen before. So, so yeah, no, I was, I was really glad that people listened to it and liked it.

It was a real thing. Well,

Casey: the pacing of that show was really, really well done. And because. Sometimes you feel like you’re overwhelmed with like the jokes or whatever, and the, the content what’s going on, you guys had like a Foley person on the show. Everything was really well light produce. The sound quality was great.

So it, it worked really well. Oh, thanks. Yeah. What I’m saying is it was, well, it was very fun.

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Well, thanks. Yeah. W

Casey: when you, when you overuse a word and you felt like a jackass, that’s me, [00:16:00] but onto on to you guys, kind of collaborating and doing this Jordan. Did you guys kind of come together and listen to it together and take notes?

Or do you have a script and you just kinda went Tony? This is what we want or what was it more organic

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: than that?

So the, the bubble re series, the podcast series, as you listened to it would have probably made a 500 page graphic novel or something because he’s a coward.

Well, but also, also we were interested in it coming out in a, in a reasonable time instead of, you know, us getting to 2030, and then look and be like, guys, here’s the bubble graphic novel. I mean, I guess then it, then it encounters an entire new generation of readers, which is also very important. One is

Casey: like the bone omnibus.

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Right. Yeah,

[00:17:00] Casey: exactly

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: massive. So, so the first, I think the first thing was I think from everybody in everybody involved, you know, from Calista and Allie, our wonderful editor like, like they, they editor Allie wilderness I think we all made it sort of the first school to sort of, I guess. I dunno.

How do you describe it? Like pair it down? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, the podcast is very episodic, you know, it is it, you know, I think we wrote it kind of like a TV show, like a season of TV. So, you know, there’s a bigger story going on, but then there’s just little, little jots that You know, aren’t necessarily important to this bigger story.

Like there’s a, there’s an episode of the podcast where the one of the main characters is is dating a guy and she can’t remember his name and she Oh, it does. You can’t remember his name, but it’s one of those things where, when you’re dating multiple people at once which is something that we all do all the time, you know, you refer to them to your friends, it’s just like, Oh, this is like, [00:18:00] you know, this is surfer guy.

And this is, you know, talks with his mouth full guy. So she’s dating this guy who she It has no characteristics. So she just refers to him as standard guy voiced by John Hodgman in the podcast. So yeah, so I think so, so that was, and then that guy mutates into you know, this kind of crazy monster who also has no characteristics And that was like a funny episode that I think we all liked, but I think that, you know, agreement was that didn’t really like push the story further and it didn’t, you know, it was just something that was there and maybe something we could use for a future volume.

But you know, as long as we were kind of streamlining things, stuff like that, kind of, you know, went into the, went into the pile. And yeah. And then I think we, you know, once we kind of had a more streamlined story, we wanted to do some more stuff with the characters and we wanted to do more stuff, you know, like scenes that weren’t in the podcast and some new stuff than a new ending.

So, so yeah, I think it, it, it, it, it CA shortening was the first thing we [00:19:00] did. And then we. You know, kind of tried to pepper in new stuff that, that we thought would be great for comics. I think it’s also worth mentioning here that we, when we were doing this, like this was two years ago. Right. And we were doing the bulk of this work.

Yeah, because it would have, it took me about. I want to say around a year to do all the line art Natalie Reese than, than took it. We handed it off to Natalie Reese and she did all her lovely colors on it. But I was drawing it for about a year before that. And then it was like maybe half a year, or I don’t know, a good chunk of time before that, that like Jordan and Sarah and I were talking about how to break it up and all that sort of thing.

So some time has passed, which is why, if we’re talking about this and it feels a little bit like, do you remember how to that’s that’s kinda, that’s kinda why and yeah. I think that some, some listeners might not know is that with this format of comic book [00:20:00] or with this, you know, book publishing style, graphic novel but we’ve finished everything I handed in my stuff.

Like a year and a half ago. I think, I think Natalie finished Natalie Natalie finished color work on it, probably probably about a year before, like last year, last summer, probably I think

Casey: I can’t, I can’t imagine being that far in advance. I adjusted my first comment Kickstarter not long ago. Hey, thank you.

Thank you. We just finished the colors and it’s being lettered and we’re, we’re telling everybody, you know, it was going to be shipped to your house by June. So, I can’t imagine being like a year and a half. Like done with something before, like it comes out. That is amazing.

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Yeah, that’s, that’s sort of, book publishing standard business in, in most cases other than like, I’ve heard stories of people who are working on image comics who are like, Oh, I finished pages and then, and then sent them off.

And then two weeks later the books on, on uncommon bookshop shelves and stuff like that. Oh, yeah. I’ve,

Casey: I’ve talked to some of the old guys in the industry and that they’ll [00:21:00] talk about, you know, back in the day before they all had kids and wives hanging out and, you know, drinking beers and helping each other, finish the inks or whatever on so-and-so issue.

And they’re like, you can tell this is my ex because blah, blah, blah, on the page. And it’s yeah, it was fast and loose back in the day, man.

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: I think it’s still maybe fast and loose in many parts of the many parts of the industry. But yeah, so we were talking about, we were talking about that Trent let’s get that transitioning process which is a more loaded statement than I think I intended to use.

But that adaptation. I was talking about the adaptation of this. And I do remember there being a, a spirit of like, wanting to add not, I dunno, what would he call wanting to make a comic comic? He, like, there are some elements that work better in a podcast, and there are some elements that work better in naturally in a comic book you know, w for the different format.

And I think just sort of. Working to identify things with the podcast that would work great in the [00:22:00] comic trying to come up with new stuff that might work, you know, work best in the comic book, as you know, with the visuals and the T the way the tab. The way, the timing unfolds on the page, that sort of thing.

I would say it was a very collaborative process. We, we have many Google docs with lots of back and forth notes. You would have, fans would love to see these Google docs would that, would they, they would, they would, they would love it. No, and I, and I should say too, that like, You know, it was, so it was so great to work with Tony because Tony is a very good writer.

He writes the Delilah Dirk books, which are yeah. Total package. I don’t, I don’t have to take this. And Tony is a, I also very funny guy himself and did did, and definitely did a lot of writing and joke, pitching joke. Right. So anyway so yeah, even though his his name is on there as, as artists, he, he definitely did a shit ton to shape the story and do jokes and stuff like that.

So, which is great. I think Sarah [00:23:00] and I both come from like, you know, TV comedy, and like late night TV comedy in particular. So, you know, the like writers’ room is a comfortable place for both of us to work. So, Yeah. The fact that we had it, wasn’t just like people S you know, solitary people sitting in their corner doing their bit.

It was a little more of a, it was a little more of a fuck around, even though we’re all in like, different countries. So it definitely had that like white board, you know, feet on the table. You know, throwing, throwing LaCroix cans into the waste waste basket, like they were basketballs kind of vibe. Yeah, I think it really, I think it comes across in the book.

I think the, I think the kind of like joke style and one-upsmanship of the dialogue kind of like reflects how we put it together. Okay. And I do specifically remember you, the first script that I saw from you and Sara Okay. The first group that I saw from you guys, sorry about that was [00:24:00] not broke, was not broken down into pages or panels and that sort of thing.

And so we had a conversation about, Hey, do you guys want to go through and do that, that sort of thing? Is that something you you want to be specific about or is that something you want to leave from me? Which you did, which we did in the end. I think I, you know, we talked about, you know, things to emphasize on this and that and the other thing, but mostly it it was fantastic.

You’re like, no, go to town and break it up, break it into pages and panels and that sort of stuff. And I got to, and it was great. So

Casey: writing for TV and comedy is kind of a different discipline than writing for comics. Was it a challenge for you to, to get this adapted into a comic form even? I mean, you had Tony and, and your other friend helping you out, but I’m sure it was a quite a bit different from your normal writing routine.

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Yeah. You know, I, before doing this, I read a couple of books on [00:25:00] comic writing a DC based one that I think is by Neil Adams. I wish I could remember. And then words for pictures by Brian, Michael Bendis and. There is, there’s a very interesting thesis that runs through that Bendis book.

And that thesis is you. The writer are scum, you are replaceable. Your job is to make the artist look good and to make their job easier and to make a. Make a world for them to play and show off their talents. Once again, you’re scum and replaceable. And you know, like definitely don’t, don’t feel like.

You know, don’t feel like they have to do it your way, you know? So I think, I think that kind of beat me down into a, you know, submissive little ball to where I wanted, you know, like, like, just make sure that, [00:26:00] that you’re giving. The artists, what they want instead of what you you’ve heard that you should do, you know?

Cause yeah, I think I was part of me was like, no, I have to write it. Like, you know, I saw in this, you know, Stan Lee book from the eighties, it’s like, no, that is not necessarily best for the artists and not necessarily the most fun for them. So, so yeah, do do do that and you’ll, you’ll get a, you’ll get a more fun creative project from the other side.

Do you feel that

Casey: your comedic timing was helpful in getting it onto the page? Or was it a new type of, did you have to relearn how to have a good timing on stuff?

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Oh, are you talking to me? Yes.

Casey: Yes. I know that Tony did the art and stuff, but kind of had to, and.

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Oh, yeah, this is interesting.

So I, you know, when I started doing this, I, you know, was not very critical of the comics I was [00:27:00] reading. I know what I knew, what I liked and what I didn’t like, but you know, like I said, at the top, like comics to me have always been magic, you know, like something for someone else to do and something I could never do myself, you know?

And now after like, you know, having, having Made one and perhaps others coming down the pipe that you know, now I can kind of read them and, you know, kind of. See things that I like and dislike and stuff that works and stuff that doesn’t a little clear and something that I noticed is that like a lot of great comic artists, just aren’t good with jokes and you know, a lot of fantastic art, you know, that is beautiful and full of character and very fun to look at.

We’ll torpedo a joke. And I, what I liked so much about Tony’s art is that. There is a, there’s a film comedy logic to it where it’s not someone a joke. Isn’t someone saying something funny. It’s someone [00:28:00] reacting, reacting to someone saying something funny. So I just, I really just appreciate how When something happens in our book, Tony gives it a minute to land and you get to see the characters react to the funny thing, rather than just like wishing off to the next panel.

It’s really great. It really like has, has, I think it has the quality of like a good film comedy in that, like there are beats, you know, there’s beats between jokes. It’s it’s it’s it’s terrific. I, I I couldn’t be happier with like, The sense of comedy pace that Tony brought to it. It’s it’s it’s awesome.

Well, and also, I mean, I will grab my tennis racket and play compliment tennis right back at you. Like the characters as they are written are, I mean, they’re warm. They are naturally funny. They’re good. They’re all excellent compliments to each other. So that, like, I’m, I’m scrolling through it here on my screen and like looking at the scene of, with Mitch and Morgan at the farmer’s market stuff.

And it’s just like, the way that they interact is [00:29:00] like, it’s separate from, you know, explicitly jokes. Like you can’t, their interactions are just so, I just, they’re very warm and they’re very likable and, and they’re just, it’s like, it’s a naturally funny, it feels like. Yeah, it’s tough. I think something that we did really early on in the podcast is make sure that the characters were saying funny things to each other, but they didn’t come across.

Like they hated each other. I think there were early drafts where it seemed like everyone hated each other. Which is not the case. I mean, you know, it’s tough when you want to have characters who kind of snark a little bit, or whoever, you know, who have a little bit of snark in their sense of humor. So, yeah, I think that was some good, like refining that we did on the podcast was like, okay, let’s these people are friends.

They like each other there’s baggage, you know? But you know, they’re on an adventure together because they like each other and you know, and they need each other. So, yeah, I think, I think that’s always a weird little tight rope to walk is how can these people be [00:30:00] funny? Yeah. Without, without it being all slams or all cut downs, or if there are slammed and cut downs, making sure they’re coming from a, you know, a place of love.

Yeah, like at the farmer’s market here, Morgan clearly cares about, about Mitch’s, you know, wellbeing. It’s the same, more Morgan cares about his wellbeing. And he is, he is a super powered super weapon now. And I mean, that’s just like, but it’s also bumbling and sort of sort of naive and putting things together.

And it’s just like, it’s a funny, it’s a funny setup. It’s easy for it to be a funny secret. That’s a funny story.

Casey: Yeah. I fell in love with that. That pod, like immediately the characters in it were so well thought out. And the whole time I was listening to it, I was like, man, this, this good. I mean, obviously the budget that would take for it to be live action or something would be Astronomical, but I could see it in the vein of like a Futurama [00:31:00] or a a show like that that you’re adapting it into a graphic.

Novel is amazing. And I cannot wait to get my mitts on it. Is this going to be like a one and done, or do you have more plans for bubble?

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Yeah, let’s see. What’s the, what’s the line on that? Yeah, I think we, you know, we, we loved making this obviously there are a billion stories you know, to tell him this world Little bit of a cliffhanger at the end of the book.

So yeah, we, we are excited to do more if, if that’s something that the publishers and the fans want obviously if people, if the book sells, they will, they will order bores. So, so yeah, we’re, we’re you know, I think, I think schedules schedules permitting. We’re all, we’re all down to do more.

And yeah, and I think if people. Like the book then You know, pre-order it, if you’re excited about it and yeah. If, if you if you get it and love it yeah. You know, review it, tweet about it, post [00:32:00] about it on Instagram, those things all really, really help, you know, decisions for sequels. So you guys.

It’s a, your audience probably knows this already, but when it comes to books and comics pre-orders do actually do actually have an impact actually

Casey: meaningful. And it’s, it’s so important especially with the way the drug market is these days like this, this store is not going to order something that just doesn’t have a demand for it.

So, yeah, I can tell you guys. Cannot stand one another at all. You have a real Gallagher brothers attention going on.

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Yeah, exactly

Casey: genius going on. So, can’t wait to see what’s happening in the book. No, no. I can tell you genuinely like working with one another and I can’t wait to I, I hope to see more of it.

It’s always fun interviewing creators that, that genuinely just. Get each other and having affection for one another. I kind of see that in, in, in what you guys are [00:33:00] showing now. So,

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: that was very kind of you to say. Thanks. Yeah,

Casey: it brings me to my next question for Tony is Tony. You do the Delilah Kirk or Delilah Dirk rather.

And you do that on your lonesome. You lonely man at a table and you’re doing a comic. How is it working?

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Well, none of those are unfair statements. I will, I will also say that. I want to, I want to give you peace of mind and comfort in knowing that the, the series Delilah Derek is routinely mispronounced as Delia Dirk, by just abroad.

Like everybody, everybody makes that mess. It’s such a common thing. So, we’re all in a very comfortable space. We’re all feeling good. I’m sorry. I interrupted you. No, no,

Casey: no. I just wanted to know Yeah. It’s how was that different from, from working working as a lone Wolf to work in with

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Jordan?

I will say, I will say it was super refreshing. It was no, as it was also kind of like a [00:34:00] thing that I really needed. I come from an animation background and like Jordan mentioned the writer’s room and that sort of like a writer’s room environment. I really, really sort of enjoy that type of thing.

And then Jordan and we met up real, I think before even, you know, paperwork got signed and stuff and talked about. This, this sort of idea. I’m like, I love that writer’s room sort of environment. I love that collaboration, that sort of kicking stuff back and forth. And after I finished the third after I finished the third Delilah dark book, I was feeling maybe like a little burnt-out making comic books again.

But then, then Bernadette, my lovely agent gave me this call and said, Hey you for a second is thinking of doing it. And I was like, sign me up please. And thank you. This is going to be fun to work on. This is going to be a great change of pace. And it turned out to be all of those things. It was such a delight.


Casey: Just

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: real still. It’s still a lot of lonely time at the desk being a very lonely person, but

[00:35:00] Casey: sorry. I mean, it’s good. Could you tell us exactly what, what is Delilah dark?

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Yes I can. It is a series now of three books published by first second. They. Tell the story of 19th century. England’s premier brash, lady adventurer.

I take place in Turkey and the Mediterranean and England. I designed them to fill the Indiana Jones shaped hole in my own heart. So if you have a similar hole in your heart, please, these books will fit tightly in there. They’re funny. They’re lighthearted. But but I try to make them sort of, I don’t know, I’m trying to, I try to together all of my favorite things from all the favorite con all my favorite comics, like the nice, the excitement and and dynamism from like all the image comics I read growing up in the nineties Calvin and Hobbes before that.

And then, you know, all this stuff we’re seeing in more literary graphic novels these days, and just sort of like, [00:36:00] see what I can squeeze in there. And I mean, anybody can go and take a look at it if they like at the I’m currently working on a fourth. It is in progress right now. And you can follow [email protected]

That’s what I can tell you about.

Casey: Awesome. Awesome. As creators. I can hear a baby in the background somewhere. Oh, I apologize. No, no, no. Don’t apologize. I have two kids. They’re loud as hell. Kids can not be quiet. That’s where I’m coming at with this next question. As a creator, like you, you both have people in your lives that you want to see outside of your work.

How do you achieve that

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: balance? Well, I think you’re making a pretty rash assumption there too. You see others? Yeah, I mean, I, I, you know, obviously I think, you know, with, with the creative pursuits, you have. Super swamped times where you forget to eat lunch and then you have less swamped times [00:37:00] where you go back and watch Farscape.


you know, I think that, yeah, I just finish. From start to finish and then rewatch it and do a podcast about it. No, I’m not doing a Farscape podcast. Everybody wants to hear that there were

Casey: about eight fan boys that were just like, Oh shit, our time is

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: gone. Yeah. I think there’s, you know, part of it is just kind of like, you know, I, I think as, as creative people You know, there’s a tendency to like panic during those slow times, like, Oh no, I’ll never work again.

I’m irrelevant. And should probably just have a Viking funeral for myself. But I think that, that the healthier thing to do is to, you know, just kind of tell yourself, like, Hey, it’s slow now it’ll pick up. Now is the time to, you know, you know, strengthen those relationships and do the stuff that you know is good for your.

Brain and health and stuff like that. I do not always follow this advice. They get out loud in hopes that I’ll take it to heart for later. So yeah, [00:38:00] he becomes real energy. Yeah, exactly. Thank you to make it. So, yeah, I think that’s what I kind of try to do is to do less panicking during the slow times and more like, you know, just using it to you know, do all that stuff.

Casey: Tony. Do you have any, do you have any work-life balance tips?

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: No, not at all. That small child that you may pick up in the background is a, is a very recent addition. So yeah, like he, he came along after, after I’d finished all my work on bubble even. So, I am figuring out, figuring it out as, as I go That you seen that, like, there will be more but yes.

Casey: Nice, nice. So we’re, we’re done, baby factory has been shut down. Made sure that myself and yeah, that was interesting.

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Some I have a, I have a friend and he he went to go make a similar decision as I think you’re suggesting there. And as part of that process, they, it [00:39:00] involves a lot of counseling that sort of thing, to make sure that you’re certain about this.


Casey: decision

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: you’re going to make. Yes. He said, he said to the nurse who was telling him these things, it’s like, he’s like, I have three sons at home under the age of three, because two twins. And she was like, all right, we’ll schedule you in for free, no further counseling.

Casey: When I went in there was a nurse in there and she was like, okay, yeah, just get your pants off.

And Put your feet in stirrups and Dr. Ben in a minute. And I was, I was like, okay, I’ll just wait for this lady to get out of the room, you know, because I


Never, I’m a never nude, I think. And so, I’m like waiting. She’s like, what are you waiting for? Like take pants off. And I was like, Oh, I thought I had to wait for you to leave.

She’s like, baby, I been seeing dicks all day, which yeah. Kinda kind of lighten the mood a little bit. And then some, some middle-aged dude comes out too

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: proud about it. [00:40:00] Yeah. Yeah.

Casey: So, yeah. Talks about kayaking for about 30 minutes and it was done. So, while for a cowboy, like a cowboy for about a week, but okay,

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: nice.

And you just got right back in that kayak. Oh yeah, yeah, no,

Casey: no regrets. But yeah, man, I love being a dad. I hope you enjoy it as well because it’s great.

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: So far, it is a goddamn delight. Oh yeah. Yeah. And

Casey: speaking of, you know, kind of adjusting what, what are your work hours, as in, as an artist? Are you a late

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: mine?

Well right now, as, as we try and figure this sort of thing out you know, as a whole family thing is getting about about four hours of solid work then. But anyway, that’s that’s right now prior to that, trying to keep like, like real healthy, real saying. Type of working hours. I know in the comics community, it seems like, you know, you go on Twitter.

Like everybody’s just working all the time, just [00:41:00] like weekends and evenings and that sort of thing. Or like staying up all night. And it’s like, I had one, if, if I try to work, if I try to work past a certain amount of time than. Like the work just starts to suffer and it just becomes not useful, not useful.

You get a poor rate of return. So, you know, it’s like a nine to six, nine to seven type thing when I was working on bubble yeah. About that, but that take a walk in the middle of the day. Nothing crazy. Eat regular and get lots of sleep. Brush your teeth.

Casey: I was talking to billionaire Island artist, Steve Pugh, not long ago.

And he his work schedule, he wakes up at like one in the afternoon and does his East be nice

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: being a teenager? Oh, the whole thing. He ducks a mountain do play some halo.

Casey: He works all through this a night, so that when his, when his partner gets off work, [00:42:00] he can hang out with her. And then when she goes to bed, he can get to work and, you know, make the.

Make the monies, which I was like, Oh my gosh, that must be an amazing way to be able to kind of schedule your day because you know, you’re not tied to an office setting or whatever, but,

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: It has its it has its perks. But like when you, when you’re at home sort of running things by yourself, it’s like, If I don’t know, I find a routine very helpful.

This is all very, very personal stuff. My partner is a nurse. And, and so we try, we tried a little bit of a thing where I would adjust my hours too, because she works two days and then two nights. Right. Which, and her. Circadian rhythms, whatever. Just fine. No problem. Like a water off a Duck’s back. And, but, you know, I tried to adapt to that and sort of do that thing that you were describing earlier a little bit, and it was just not taking, I turned into it.

I turned it into a smaller, more withered [00:43:00] Walnut.

So Jordan, when can we expect to see bubble?

Casey: The the

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: graphic novel. Yeah, it’s coming out July 13th. And you can grab that at your local bookstore, your local comic book store. But yeah, pre-orders are, come down to San Diego. Comic-Con on Thanksgiving day. Yeah, that timing, wasn’t as didn’t turn out to be great as we had hoped.

But yeah, so bubble it’s pre-order pre-order it right now. Maybe, maybe we’ll all be at one of these. Cons at the end of the year to hand you one, but but yeah, it’s it’s, it, it, it’s coming in. We love it. And I think if Oh, and I think we can say now we’re also you know, I think if you pre-order, we might make it worth your while with a little bonus.

So, yeah, definitely. If that incentivizes you Yeah. It’s yeah, it’s coming July 13th, July, and also, yeah, like support your local comic book, shop, support your local, a bookstore. They employ your neighbors and they [00:44:00] bring artists comic book artists and writers to your town. For impersonal events.

They’re fantastic. Definitely. We have, we have very, we have crave and selfish reasons that we hope you pre-order, but also, yeah, it’s, you know, just something that I never thought about doing myself, but you know, like with with this, you know, with the pesky COVID it’s definitely, I’ve gotten into a practice of like, Calling my local shop and pre-ordering stuff and special ordering stuff.

Yeah, just cause I, I now kind of see how, how vital it is. So yeah, if if, if, if you’re not doing with our book, do it with do it with some other books. It’s a good thing to do. Speaking of

Casey: local shops always like to ask my guests if they could kind of shout out their local because I want to keep these places open.

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Oh, yeah. So I’m in Vancouver, BC where my local used to be pulp fiction books, a great a great used bookstore but also also fantastic place to pre-order books. I’ll get into anything you want in a very timely fashion. And we’re doing, [00:45:00] doing, in-person like, like hand delivery at the start of quarantine when we were all doing that.

And now my local is a, is a black bond books. And they also lovely people. Yeah. And I’m I’m here in Los Angeles, California. And for for book books, I always go to book soup. We’re there on the sunset strip bookseller to the great and infamous is their tagline, which I really like. And yeah, just for like monthly comics and graphic novels the secret headquarters in silver Lake is a great, great shot.

Good stuff about that. Yeah, they’re awesome. You know, I, you know, it’s one of the first places I. Went when I moved to LA and you know, their great recommendations led me to like a lot of the stuff that I still read today. So, yeah, definitely a great example of how like the local shop is a great resource for, you know, not just the books, but like, know how, and they learn your taste and they can put cool stuff into your hands that you wouldn’t have gotten otherwise.

And yeah. So, book soup in the secret headquarters to Austin place.

Casey: Awesome. So Tony, I know Delilah Kurt book [00:46:00] four is going to be coming out eventually in addition to the bubble or in addition to bubble Jordan, what else is coming out that we need to be aware of?

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Yeah, I think nothing.

Thing basically basically bubble and yeah, and actually, you know, if you’re listening to this and haven’t heard the podcast it’s still up there on maximum You can you can hear it and then hopefully it gets you, it gets you all moist and ready for the graphic novel. And yeah, and hopefully, you know, hopefully yeah, we’re bringing you enough, enough, cool.

New stuff. In addition to the stuff you liked from the podcast and also a Jordan, Jesse go that’s my chat show that we mentioned it is a aimless chat show with absolutely no point. I do it with Jesse thorn, who you might know from NPR and yeah, we have you know, cool guests from the world of comedy, et cetera on, and just kind of shoot the shit for a couple hours every week.

So, yeah, maximum, a great place to get podcasts.

Casey: Yes. Yes. Again, you guys introduced me to the awesomeness of podcasts and [00:47:00] never would have, I would have imagined that I would be talking to to Jordan Morris. So that’s kind of awesome. And you guys thank you so much for coming onto the show to talk about bubble again, July 13th for second books.

Pre-order it now. You guys have anything else to say?

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Yeah, thanks for having us. This is really cool. You guys do such great interviews with like comics, people, which is kind of rare in podcasts. It’s always like, you know, I’ve always wanted to hear from, so, yeah. Thanks for, thanks for asking this.

It’s nice to be. Thanks for having us on, dude. It was a

Casey: blast real delight. I’ve. I’ve enjoyed talking to you guys. And anytime y’all want to come back on you know, for anything, let me

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: know.  Cool. Yeah. Thanks. It’s been a blast. All right, Casey.

Casey: Thank you. You kids be sweet. I’m going to go. I’m going to go take care of a, a mean six year old and a a really weird

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: ten-year-old.

So I’m stopping. I’m stopping my [00:48:00] audio here. I’ll just email this to your, your dude, Jeff who booked us. Yeah, yeah,

Casey: yeah. That’ll work. Cool, dude, that Mike, that you have, that is a that is a nice looking Mike. You got there. Oh, thanks.

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Yeah. It is a sure. Mike, I actually don’t know too much about audio production.

So I can’t talk too much shop with you on that, but yeah, it’s been good. It disconnects from the computer sometimes randomly, but other than that I have no complaints or Jordan.

Casey: Thank you again, Tony. It was, it was a pleasure meeting you. If you ever want to talk about Delilah Kirk or anything by all means shoot us a message.

We’d love to have you. Thank you very much. Y’all enjoy your afternoon. And sorry if I say y’all too much. No,

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: it’s great. I, my, my family is my family’s from the South, so it’s nice to, nice to hear a y’all to always come to them. I try to use it more in conversation and then my dumb friends up here in the Pacific Northwest.

So is that something you’re trying to get going? I’m like, well

Casey: now, Inadvertently, I become inclusive with book [00:49:00] because this is John is gender non-specific. So you can totally be like, yeah, what’s up y’all and nobody goes like, you know, they, nobody jumps out. So that’s good. It’s so useful.

Jordan Morris and Tony Cliff RAW.output: Really? Yes. I agree.

Casey: Again, it was a pleasure. Y’all have a good one. Okay. Yeah. Geez.


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